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What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 05:14:40

pdxLife
Level 56
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Always thought that Belgium was the part of Spanish Netherland (or Holland) but despite the Netherland get their independence Belgian couldnt get it at the same time. Also in Medieval Spanian (as Belgians) were Catholic as Netherlands became Protestants (in case of opposite to Spain i guess)
And when Belgium get independence due to religion difference and French language impact they didnt united with Netherlands
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 14:30:19


Belgian Gentleman
Level 57
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Frankish Empire begun in present-day Belgium. Capital was Tournai for 70 years and Dutch is the most closely related language to Frankish. Charlemagne, the great king of the Francs is believed to have been born in Liege. Franks conquered much of Western Europe. The term 'Netherlands' didn't exist back then in the Frankish Empire.

Feudalism of aristocratic families towards the Frankish empire existed. After the split of Middle Francia, areas were divided by East and West Francia. This caused weird feudalism because the border went straight through rivers and divided big cities like Liege and Ghent in 2 parts.

Notice that much of the counties like Flanders,Holland,Brabant,Liege were created after the fall of the Frankish Empire and during the crusades. Creating a term 'united provinces' that would later come. Take for example Brabant which was created in 1085.




The House of Burgundy then did some acquisitions by marriages and conquests reuniting an area that ressembled the benelux. After the Burgundian dynasty died out, the counties fell back to the Holy Roman Empire (giving them a territorial gain upon France).



Although the idea ' united 17 provinces ' to unite all the dutch provinces to 1 state only came up in 1543 by Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire. Charles V seperated the Dutch lands from the Holy Roman Empire by making it his own personal domain. When Charles V dies in 1561, the area was taken over by the Spanish Monarchy.

note that Charles V was not a German but a Spaniard. He played a major function in the thirty years' war.

So yes it was really Burgundy and Spain who brought the Netherlands into one union. And the term 'Netherlands' or even 'Dutch' in meaning of an ethnic group didn't exist at all during the Frankish Empire or Lotharingua. However the term dutch as ethnic identity did occure in around 1100-1200.

I agree I was wrong , correct phrase should be:

It was Burgundy and Spain who united the Dutch people and the Netherlands




Liège was a ecclesiastic state, owned by the church and regented by bishops. Liege indeed was part of the Lower Rhenish-Westphalian Imperial Circle but very low German influence.
The Prince-Bishopric state succeeded in maintaining its autonomy, though theoretically it was part of the Holy Roman Empire. This virtual independence was owed largely to the ability of its bishops, who on several occasions played an imortant part in international politics, being strategically positioned between France and Germany.




Brabant Revolution was liberal. It was the bourgeoise/ intelectuals who rebelled , not the lower class or nationalists. After all when Austrian rule was re-established all liberals were exiled. The rebellion was a protest movement against the reformation and loss of independent rights. The rebels strived for seperation of legistration and religion, belief of liberalisation and more priveleges. One of the leaders Jan Frans Vonck based his liberal ideas on a book of Montesquieu (The spirit of the Laws) in the Enlightment area who implented despotism in political lexicon.

Leader Jan Frans Vonck even was founder of the Vonckists, a liberal fraction under his name. Marking the start of liberalism in Belgium. Men who followed Vonck in their youth founded the Catholic liberal party in their middle age.


But sure it had nationalist traits that later would influence an other revolution. It started to create a new national identity namely that of the Belgians.


It's argumentable which country you should consider the most democratic of all.



Not all regions in the Netherlands have a majority in protestants. The Dutch Republic was 75% protestant and 25% catholic. Moreover it was tolerable to religions (even the first law of the dutch lawbook is modelled after that). Spanish rule in the Spanish Netherlands on the other hand wasn't.
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 14:37:59


Cata Cauda
Level 59
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You have a nice picture from Wikipedia commons and got your source from the internet but it's still not convenient enough.

In the Middleages and in the new age books were made in the latin language and 'Nederlanden' was usually translated to its counterpart Belgicus,Belgica,Belgicum or Belgii.

For example Nova Belgica means New Netherlands in latin.
Search Nova Belgica in google results and you'll find pictures of New Netherlands.

If you make a comment next time of a subject of which you don't really know much about then do at least some research on it.

My source was not from the internet.
I have the information from school and books.
Even Caesar himself called the region of Belgium and the Netherlands "Belgica". And please dont come with sources from the Middleages becuase that was not actually latin.
Also, lands were always female in latin and "Belgium" ends with -um, which is neutrum. So thats the proof.

Edited 10/21/2015 14:44:48
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 14:46:31


Belgian Gentleman
Level 57
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Belgica is home to the Belgae or Belgii

Belgii + um (neutrum) = belgium
That's where the name comes from in English.

In French,Italian,Spanish the word comes from Belgica, the original province

In Dutch and German, the word is derived from Belgae, the indication of people who live there

Edited 10/21/2015 15:12:05
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 14:53:49


Cata Cauda
Level 59
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Belgica is home to the Belgae or Belgii

Belgii + um (neutrum) = belgium

That's where the name comes from

Never heard of "Belgii"...

Belgae is basically the name of the german tribes there (Belgae, -arum f.)
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 15:41:45


Belgian Gentleman
Level 57
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Yeah possibly, latin changed a lot of vocabulary before it shifted to new latin. Belgii can be a disruption or old word in Latin in the Middleages. I think it's a disruption since not everyone had the same correct grammar of Latin back then.

But true fact is that Netherlands and Belgica/Belgii/Belgicum/Belgium ,or whatever variants are, mean and indicate the same region; de Nederlanden.

In an opposite world:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Belgium,_Thomson_,_1820.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/B7esYeU.jpg
What are you living for?: 2015-10-21 18:15:26


Vormulak
Level 53
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no one cares belgian when you become a relevant nation maybe ppl will give a fuck
What are you living for?: 2015-10-22 00:24:22


Жұқтыру
Level 56
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Brabant Revolution was liberal. It was the bourgeoise/ intelectuals who rebelled , not the lower class or nationalists. After all when Austrian rule was re-established all liberals were exiled. The rebellion was a protest movement against the reformation and loss of independent rights. The rebels strived for seperation of legistration and religion, belief of liberalisation and more priveleges. One of the leaders Jan Frans Vonck based his liberal ideas on a book of Montesquieu (The spirit of the Laws) in the Enlightment area who implented despotism in political lexicon.

Leader Jan Frans Vonck even was founder of the Vonckists, a liberal fraction under his name. Marking the start of liberalism in Belgium. Men who followed Vonck in their youth founded the Catholic liberal party in their middle age.


But sure it had nationalist traits that later would influence an other revolution. It started to create a new national identity namely that of the Belgians.


There are just too few high class to do to a revolution by themselves, they need low-class support. Also,, I have not read much into this, but seems like Josef II was for liberal reforms, and Belgians revolted since this? His first reformation was 1782 Tolerance Edict: Catholic Church was to be sealed with like all other Christian branches.
What are you living for?: 2015-10-22 14:41:39


Belgian Gentleman
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