Football (the true one) is interesting. You say it's boring scoring few goals, but I'd say otherwise. When you score every 20 seconds, each score is meaningless. However, if you are in minute 87 and a team scores a goal, it can be such an explosion of happiness or wrath, depending on who scores. Football is a really passional sport, and if you see a match you will see how people celebrate goals. I still remember my whole street, including myself, cheering when Andrés Iniesta scored that goal on the minute 116 on 11th July 2010 at South Africa for the Spanish win, it was amazing :,)

Anyway you are right, it is better to play it, for sure.

Edited 11/8/2015 18:11:04

the question is whether these very autonomous states have the right to secede. Note that I did not say that they should secede, only that they should be given their legitimate right to exercise their freedom of self-determination by holding a referendum on independence from their current countries. Also the time of history argument that they've been apart of these countries for X-number of years is fallacious. The basis for any right to secede should be based in the fact if a country is made up of a union of various political entities that differ in their language, majority religion, culture, and ethnicity. (**Note that I used the word "union". This is key. A union is a formal agreement made by members or entities to a contract. Said member has a right to terminate this contract if they feel it is not working in their best interests. At which point both sides would renegotiate or agree to go their separate ways**). Catalonia has significant regional differences from the rest of Spain and in fact it existed on its own previously as the Crown of Aragon. Catalunia has a different dialectic language, tends to contribute more to the economy, and if I am correct is more heavily Roman Catholic. I only argue that these places have the right to secede and I cannot speak to whether they should or should not stay, as that is way above my own political-historical knowledge.

Well, I don't know where to start. They do not have the right to secede on their own - UN Resolution #2625 states the self-determination right applies only for colonies, and for oppressed peoples. They are none of those, and as it is logical, their right to a referendum would have to be approved by a majority of Spaniards. I'm not like saying "Hahah you losers obey the King", I think that changes might be needed, but I won't support independence according to my previous statements, among many others.

Spain is a union of Iberian peoples, you are right, although not a political union of states, but a cultural and social union. It is true Castile and Aragon merged to create Spain, but even that way, Catalonia was included inside Aragon, and if someone should have the right for historical reasons, it would be Aragon on its whole definition, not just Catalonia. And about they being different from Spain... One can't be different from oneself. Many people mistake Castile for Spain, and that's certainly not true. Catalan language, culture, etc are part of the Spanish identity as well as Castilian, Galician, Aragonese, Leonese, Basque, or Andalusian, among others. What if the capital is in Castile? Spain is way more than Castile, it only makes less than 2/5 from the whole land. Barcelona is as Spanish as Madrid, Valencia, Seville, Bilbao or Saragossa. Also... as I said, Catalonia is not the successor of Aragon. Catalonia has never existed as a state, it was just a bunch of counties inside the Carolingian Empire this side of the Pyrenees. The County of Barcelona ended conquering many of them, and when the count married the heiress to Aragon, their lands were merged into the Aragon Crown. Yet Catalonia kept without having existed, it was a later idea. Apart from the fact Catalonia doesn't represent the whole Catalan culture, being also in Balearics and coastal Valencia, though those zones are firmly pro-Spanish, and reject the idea of the "Catalan countries". And, finally: Catalonia is as Catholic as the rest of Spain, not more, not less. It is true that it is a bit less Catholic than the South, but it happens in the whole North Spain, and it's not such a great difference.

Edited 11/8/2015 18:37:30

I expected more hate from football fans but thanks for understanding and also helping me to undestand :P

@Жұқтыру
I think one of the most important arguments against immigration is whether immigrants are a thread to the country. If they are, which is the case of african-arab hordes, then they are not immigrants but invaders. It's not a matter of christian culture preservation, its a matter of preventing religion wars within a country. Becuase in this war, muslims will be aggresors and christians defending. Those who cause war are responsible for it. And those who prevent wars should be proud of themselves.

I suggest you write shorter to represent your general idea and not drown into details.

They do not have the right to secede on their own - UN Resolution #2625 states the self-determination right applies only for colonies, and for oppressed peoples. They are none of those, and as it is logical, their right to a referendum would have to be approved by a majority of Spaniards. I'm not like saying "Hahah you losers obey the King", I think that changes might be needed, but I won't support independence according to my previous statements, among many others.

Just wanted to say that this is a very engaging and interesting discussion on the right of secession. First off I would like to say that the United Nations is not a legitimate body to decide on the internal politics of a country. The UN is a political dictatorship of a 5 member security council composed of the US, UK, France, China, and Russia. These nations have absolute veto power over any security council resolution. The UN does not represent the democratic values it strives to force on other nations. What's really funny is that if the security council was composed of China, India, US, Indonesia, and Brazil it would represent the interests of about 3.2 billion people. The current security council only represents about 1.9 billion people which means that a security council composed of the top 5 most populous countries would be 70% more democratic than the current system. Second the UN has no political or military right to deny the ability of a political unit to declare independence (if they do so in a democratic free and fair referendum), hence why they failed to send a UN coalition force into Crimea (also because Russia would veto any proposal). You can't use a UN resolution as an argument against the right to secede and declare independence because the UN is a defunct globalist organization with no right to interfere in domestic politics. I would argue that self-determination is a natural right of a political body.

Now I'll delve specifically into why Catalonia has a legitimate claim to declare independence based on the idea of self-determination. Recall this quote by Catalan historian Jaume Vicens Vives: "The life of the Catalan is an act of continuous affirmation [...] It is because of this that the defining element of the Catalan psychology is not reason, as for the French; metaphysics, as for the Germans; empiricism, as for the English; intelligence, as for the Italians; or mysticism, as for the Castilians. In Catalonia, the primary feature is the desire to be." Catalan is culturally distinct from the rest of spain. Bilbao may be as Spanish as Madrid and Barcelona, but the point is that they are a different type of Spanish. Their Spanish culture has enough regional differences and variations as to call them a separate entity. Catalans don't dance flamenco. Catalans banned bullfighting as cruel and barbaric. Catalan has their own language, flag, and food. Catalans have fought since Franco's dictatorship the brutal crackdown on their language and culture and they have significant devolution of power (this will continue until Catalonia is virtually independent). Second Catalonia is an unequal partnership with the federal government in Madrid. They give annually 17 billion euros in taxes yet have no fiscal autonomy, resulting in growing debts and unemployment. Catalonia actually has a greater GDP than the rest of Spain combined.

Read these two article to get a better sense of the arguments I am making: http://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/independence-catalonia/#.Vj_K_fmrTIU
http://www.jhubc.it/bcjournal/articles/desquens.cfm

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I think one of the most important arguments against immigration is whether immigrants are a thread to the country. If they are, which is the case of african-arab hordes, then they are not immigrants but invaders.

Yes, but I hate that kind of thing, and strangely enough, these thoughts are in America and Singapore as well, countries built and proud of their multiculturalism. Don't let the Mexicans/Malay in, before you know it, noone will know English, but we'll have to learn Spanish/Malay. Well, whatever your stance on it, 10k, 100k, it won't do anything to stance of "destroying it".

It's not a matter of christian culture preservation, its a matter of preventing religion wars within a country. Becuase in this war, muslims will be aggresors and christians defending. Those who cause war are responsible for it. And those who prevent wars should be proud of themselves.

What kind of supremacist creed is this? Christians don't start wars? Those who cause war ore responsible for it? I guess genocide of all "pagan" in Africa and slaughtering all who did not go to Christianity is very nice thing to do, as well as more recently over 3000 in a day, just on the truth that they are Muslim, and systematically maiming folk in non-Christian villages, is this glorious Christianity? You are just lucky that you live in a stable protectorate, that your troubled times, from 1939 to 1945, have ended, for now. 1/5 Poland's population destroyed, in Second World War, I'm sure you'd love it if other countries said "those who cause war are responsible for it. And those who prevent wars should be proud of themselves."



Preventing religion wars, so please spread Christianity.

Edited 11/9/2015 06:18:12

Pablo... Spain is not Euskadi nor Catalonia, and dont say again Spain is Portugal... This is a total nonsense.

part of the Spanish identity as well as Castilian, Galician, Aragonese, Leonese, Basque, or Andalusian, among others

Guess what, I am Basque and not Spanish, I have no Spanish ID card nor citizenship, I have the French one. Hence I dont feel being part of any "Spanish Identity". So your argument does not stand at all, or at least you avoid the remaining 300.000 other Basques that have no "Spanish identity" at all as you say (not forgetting that also a huge part of the Basques living in the other side never felt Spaniards at all..)

@Жұқтыру

All right, maybe I overgeneralized a bit, but nevertheless, in case of europe and referring only to present times if we let enough muslims in, there will be culture clash and they will never accept European way of life and there can be some major conflict, which if there are enough muslims may result in violence outburst between two cultural groups, such as

ethnic/religion wars within europe.

Don't you agree with this?


(I am not implying that European way of life is superior)

Edited 11/9/2015 13:16:33

It is superior stop kidding yourself.

Yes, but I hate that kind of thing, and strangely enough, these thoughts are in America and Singapore as well, countries built and proud of their multiculturalism. Don't let the Mexicans/Malay in, before you know it, noone will know English, but we'll have to learn Spanish/Malay.

There's a difference between people of several different cultures immigrating to a country and then integrating into one solid multi-culture, and one group immigrating en masse and totally overriding the existing culture.

What kind of supremacist creed is this? Christians don't start wars? Those who cause war ore responsible for it? I guess genocide of all "pagan" in Africa and slaughtering all who did not go to Christianity is very nice thing to do, as well as more recently over 3000 in a day, just on the truth that they are Muslim, and systematically maiming folk in non-Christian villages, is this glorious Christianity? You are just lucky that you live in a stable protectorate, that your troubled times, from 1939 to 1945, have ended, for now. 1/5 Poland's population destroyed, in Second World War, I'm sure you'd love it if other countries said "those who cause war are responsible for it. And those who prevent wars should be proud of themselves."

I think you need to re-read his post, because you totally missed everything he was trying to say. He never once implied that Christians never start wars, or that they haven't committed crimes in the past. He was referring solely to the present-day situation where Islamic extremism is at a peak and the mass influx of immigrants is heavily likely to start religious wars between Muslim immigrants and the existing Christian groups.

indeed Ion. Most important innovations of the past 3 centuries have been made by europeans.

Really guys we're descending into Ethnic and Racial supremacy arguments. At least bring up IQ scores...Jews and Asians dominate in that, so I guess your argument of european supremacy is kind of mute.

@JaiBharat909

I know the UN has no power to interfere inside the countries, but I am saying that one of their main arguments is "The UN said that", when it's certainly not true. I also know UN is not really representative, it serves the 'big countries' interests, and that will keep happening while veto exists. But yet, their right to self-determination would not be political, or juridical, so they should try to negotiate if they want some improvements, they have no legal basis for what they are doing, and definitely no organisation will recognise it, you just need to look at Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia...

And about the Catalan "cultural differences"... Just wtf. Do you really think Castilian psicology is based on mysticism? That explanation is highly pejorative and xenophobic, man. 19th Century nationalisms are just ethnocentric, and discriminatory. I know Vicens Vives might have been a good, wise person, but nationalism blinds reason. And one important thing, you'd better learn it now: CASTILE DOESN'T DANCE FLAMENCO. Never ever. That is an Andalusian tradition, not Castilian. And yet it has been identified with Spain. You see what I meant? Spain is not based on Castile. Or another traditional Spanish food, paella... It is Valencian. And yet it is well known as aa Spanish representative food. (I want to remark now that, according to Catalans, Valencia share their culture, so we would be saying that the most famous Spanish food is from the Catalan subculture). About bullfighting... Catalonia banned it just 3 years ago, with the start of Artur Mas' independentist campaign. But they have not been the first, of course. Canary Islands banned them long time ago. Or for example, many famous bullfighters are from Catalonia. So, even if I don't really like it, it is not a Castilian tradition, but a Spanish one, including there.

Their own language? Half Spain does too, and even Valencia and Balearics, speaking Catalan, refuse to use it as a difference towards Spain. Their own flag? LOL. They have been using Aragon's flag for centuries, they have not one. And even, if you keep it that way... Spanish modern flag is based in the Aragon flag. Not in the Castilian, Leonese, or Navarre flags. The Aragon one. And yet we don't start crying "OH NO CHANGE THE FLAG, THIS STATE IS ARAGON-CENTRIST". About Franco: He did on everyone, including Castilians opposing to him (more than half of them, probably). And OF COURSE Catalonia has an unequal relationship regarding to taxes... Otherwise, this would be a Confederation, not an autonomic state. Debts come from bad management, not from us: Otherwise, according to you, every region here would be as indebted as them. And finally, to last:

Catalonia actually has a greater GDP than the rest of Spain combined.

Sure? Check it. Catalonia makes less than 1/5 of Spanish GDP, so you were certainly wrong. The community also makes 1/6 of Spanish population. They are a relatively richer community, yes, but they are not "richer than the rest of Spain". There is a difference among posting real facts, and exaggerations.

Hope I answered everything you said. BTW, where are you from? Just curious.

And now it comes the time I answer the nonsense arguments from @AngryPanda lol.

Basques this side of the Pyrenees are Spanish, they were Spanish, and they will always be doesn't matter their loyalty. The same applies for Catalonia, Portugal, Andorra, Gibraltar or the French Cerdanya. SPAIN = IBERIA. I have already had with you this conversation, and I can say it as many times as needed. Spanish state maybe stopped representing Portugal long ago, but they have never stopped being Spanish = Iberian. For example, a different example would be Canary Islands. If they stopped being in the Spanish state, they would stop being Spanish. Why? They are not in Spain. As simple. However they would keep Spanish traditions, culture, and whatever. But they wouldn't be part of geographical Spain, just they would be part of a cultural Spain.

And again. Not all Basques are Spanish, as well as not all Catalans are Spanish. Those over the Pyrenees are not geographically Spanish, so even if they had Spanish traditions they would be only cultural Spain, not real Spain. It is true Spanish Kingdoms controlled those lands at one point (either Navarre or Aragon) but it would be as when Spain landed in Ceuta and Melilla, they are cultural Spain but not geographical one.

And, if everyone still doubts: Spain is a geographical term. Spain represents a geographical entity. All Spanish cultures are recognised, being all equally Spanish. And even if they seceded: They could stop being politically Spanish, but they are going to be Spanish forever.

No it isn't ashkenazis have superior IQ. They're the only jews with above average IQ and they are european (mostly italian). Also asians study for those tests extensively so no.

LOL how can you study for an IQ test?

Edited 11/9/2015 19:43:36

Iberia is a geographical term cf the Iberian Peninsula, so again wrong Pablo, and no Pablo, soon the Basques will be independent, again. Our culture, our people, our language are far too different compared to the rest of Spain.

Askatasuna lortuko dugu!

@Pablo - I am from New Jersey in the US but I keep track of the politics of Russia, UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Russia, China, India, Canada, and Hungary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/11984516/Catalonias-parliament-votes-to-begin-setting-up-an-independent-state.html

I guess you're not thrilled by what the Catalonian parliament did. Just want to mention that you're whole point is that there are differences between each region of spain but the identity of spain is each of these regions combined into 1 whole country. I can respectfully agree to that, but what do you do when a large section of a region believes that they are not culturally or politically in tune with the rest of the country? Do you force them (through military or economic threats) to stay in the country? The fact that the UK allowed Scotland to hold a referendum is VALIDATION of the right of Catalonia to secede (or gives it support). Again I don't believe that Catalans should vote to secede, but only that they have the right to do so in a democratic referendum.

clearly you've never taken an IQ test before AOE

soon the Basques will be independent, again

Yeah, and let's free Catalonia why we're at it. Oh, and give Scottish independence too. Might as well see how many tiny little countries we can split Europe into. And why stop at Europe? There's many people in the U.S who want Texan independence once again. Balkanization for everyone!

In seriousness though, why? What's with people wanting to turn the entire planet into a confederation of tiny states with limited land and resources? Self-Determination is important to an extent, but there needs to be a limit.

Eklipse stop being ridiculous would you? if you know nothing about Basque history/culture then you better not argue here about it. And wtf do you have against tiny states? I would rather prefer a world composed of a confederation of peaceful tiny states rather than a world composed of suprematist superpowers wanting to possess, control and rule everyone and everything (i guess you know what im talking about, see Cold War US vs USSR, or soon US vs China).