And on the other side of the coin, if there are Christians out there that think God is going to make them rich or give them power, I question whether that is Christianity at all.

Completely irrelevant. This is about what people *believe*, and what they self-identify as, not about their metaphysical status as a 'True Christian(tm)', which even you must admit is unknowable.

Some people in the US believe prayer works like a wish from a genie. Just cuz you haven't met one personally doesn't mean they don't exist in large numbers the next state or two over from your state. This is actually an uncontroversial fact if you simply look up the poll results and admit that 30% of the population is not 'a drop in the bucket' as Jai seems to want to believe.

Heh. I just double-checked, and what do you know? It *does* talk about prayer. The following sentence says:

"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

Just like a frickin' genie. Straight from Jesus' mouth, if you believe it.
Source: http://biblehub.com/mark/11-23.htm in the section called "Context".

I think atheists are too materialistic. You can be unsure or hold doubts at times, but u find being completely skeptic or worse is just awful. When i look at our universe, i see something that demands some greater being.

I'm not really creationist or evol, but i will tell you that either way the universe itself is likely an infinite cycle, at which point we look to god as our alpha and omega. And as many others say, science is not against religion, and the two have almost always complimented each other throughout history. They're almost intertwined.

The Lord is not a genie...

He does say only if you pray and ask, at which point you should reflect upon the practices of prayer. You must also consist god has never given a guitar or a diamond just because someone asked. Often than not, he might bless someone with simply a good day, or a very healthy day, or general wellbeing. I don't think any good Christian would think God goes around granting wishes. He clearly doesn't, and again he more often than not would grant something personal to you that is not material.

It's all part of a greater story we're all apart of. *

*regarding free will, it's probably like skyrim, replace spiritual stuff with God devil, make everybody the dragonborn etc...

I think atheists are too materialistic.

Simple ad hom and without justification. Whether true or false, it's irrelevant to what believers believe.

You can be unsure or hold doubts at times, but u find being completely skeptic or worse is just awful. When i look at our universe, i see something that demands some greater being.

Meaningless, arbitrary, ad hoc. Why doesn't that greater being 'demand' an even greater being, ad infinitum? Just your personal whim?

I'm not really creationist or evol, but i will tell you that either way the universe itself is likely an infinite cycle, at which point we look to god as our alpha and omega.

So, you don't really know one way or the other; therefore you make up some explanation and call it 'god'. Sounds par for the course. Also known as 'god of the gaps'.

And as many others say, science is not against religion, and the two have almost always complimented each other throughout history. They're almost intertwined.

Except for like, *most* of history, where religion on the whole has been *at best* useless for science, and in reality has usually been an impediment to science, and often the primary enemy of it.

Pick a period in history. List out all the forces pushing against science, sort that list by power and influence. Religion will almost always come out among the top entries in the list, if not the top. In some cases, you'll get political ideologies (Nazism and Stalinism famously pushed some anti-scientific views), but this is in no way a 'saving grace' to religious opposition to science. It just puts such opposition in perspective; religion(s) often opposes science just like some (other) nasty ideologies do.

He does say only if you pray and ask, at which point you should reflect upon the practices of prayer. You must also consist god has never given a guitar or a diamond just because someone asked. Often than not, he might bless someone with simply a good day, or a very healthy day, or general wellbeing. I don't think any good Christian would think God goes around granting wishes. He clearly doesn't, and again he more often than not would grant something personal to you that is not material.

It's all part of a greater story we're all apart of.

And you know all this ... how? Personal whim again?

Edited 1/24/2016 08:30:02

Not theistic, but its very sad how some atheists reject the idea of religion and yet cannot stop obsessing themselves over it.

Heh, I wouldn't be bothered with religion if people kept their religion out of other peoples' lives! Ever hear of 9/11? ISIS? Creationism? Religiously inspired climate change denialism? People voting for George W. Bush because he's more religious than the other guy (Moral Majority and all that nonsense)? Ted Cruz?

Also if religion didn't promote self-inflicted ignorance as a way of 'knowing' (i.e. faith).

Religion isn't some harmless thing, you know, eh?

Funny thing, I just googled "I prayed for a kitten" just for fun. Found these two typical stories: http://www.peeranswers.com/forums/peer-ebaiany-support-a.html, and http://caffeinated-theophanies.blogspot.ca/2013/03/the-transformative-power-of-praying-for.html

Here's another example.

Don't think people pray for 'stuff'? There's a whole thing called 'prosperity theology' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology).

Think it's harmless? Think again:

Many prosperity churches hold seminars on financial responsibility. Kate Bowler, an academic who studies prosperity theology, has criticized such seminars, arguing that though they contain some sound advice the seminars often emphasize the purchase of expensive possessions.[11] Hanna Rosin of The Atlantic argues that prosperity theology contributed to the housing bubble that caused the late-2000s financial crisis. She maintains that home ownership was heavily emphasized in prosperity churches, based on reliance on divine financial intervention that led to unwise choices based on actual financial ability.[11]

Not a scientific critique, but something to think about before you just assume people are merely 'obsessing' over religion. (BTW, if atheists are 'obsessing' over religion, what does that say about the actual religious?) I mean, were *you* immune to the effects of the housing bubble and resulting collapse? I doubt it (it had global consequences, as the faulty mortgages were often sold off to foreign markets). Religion affects you, too, even if you're not paying attention to it.

Edited 1/24/2016 09:09:40

This stuff is basically endless. Googling "prayed for a new car", found 16 prayers at http://www.prayers-for-special-help.com/prayer-for-a-new-car.html. Here's the first one:

Prayer for a new car

by DIONISIO FRANCISCO
(ANGOLA )

saint jude , i realy need a new car and because it is so expenseve i really dont know how to get this money . so i beg you as i beleive you pwer and your are capable to help on any condition , i employer make money appear on the top of my bad soon as i arrived home . thankk you my Lord

And at https://miraclesinprayer.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/prayer-36-acquiring-a-new-vehicle/:

Prayer 36 – Acquiring a New Vehicle
Posted on October 26, 2011 by Robin Duncan

Dear God,
I am looking to acquire a new vehicle. I’m willing to open my mind and allow myself to have an amazingly smooth and beautiful experience as I go about this. I am willing to invite miracles and accept the transportation that You feel I deserve. In the past, I inadvertently decided against myself on a number of occasions and I’m willing to not do that now. Thank You, in advance, for the most beautiful, desirable, reliable, high quality, easy to acquire, dependable, affordable, timely and efficient vehicle that is possible. I trust that You will show me the greatest possible way to accomplish this, such that this vehicle acquisition is perfect for me in every way. Thank You for all the right people being involved to ensure the highest and most amazing experience of acquiring a new vehicle that I’ve ever had. Thy will be done. Amen

This Prayer is an excerpt from the Miracles in Prayer book by Robin Duncan.
This book includes 150 Prayers for Everyday Living.

I'm not going to discuss the merits of your straw man arguments since I'm not a theist and I never stated that religion was harmless.

However, if you look at the video in question...

Does the video make a connection between religion and '9/11 or ' ISIS?? Does it discuss the impact religion has on 'climate change denialism'?

No. The creator of the video obviously had no intention of that, the video was merely a parody, mocking people's religious practices - praying to a deistical figure for help.

I do hope you will agree that the act of praying is entirely harmless. Praying gives people positive obvious psychological effects, optimism, hope, self-reflection, its a form of meditation. Praying does not give people ideas to fly planes into building, nor does it inspire climate change denialism.

Now why is there a need to attack a harmless concept like that? Is that not obsession?

Okay Pulsey, then who are you referring to with "its very sad how some atheists reject the idea of religion and yet cannot stop obsessing themselves over it."? Darkmatter? Hitchslap? Me? Some other un-specified atheists?

Who, exactly, are you claiming 'cannot stop obsessing' over religion?

Does the video make a connection between religion and '9/11 or ' ISIS?? Does it discuss the impact religion has on 'climate change denialism'?

No. The creator of the video obviously had no intention of that, the video was merely a parody, mocking people's religious practices - praying to a deistical figure for help.

Yes, it parodies prayer. *And* it also presents an argument against a common theistic belief about prayer. You seem to ignore this latter function, calling it 'merely' a parody, as if that was all it was.

And even if it *was* 'merely' a parody, what the hell's wrong with that? You don't like parody in general? Or is it only when it's about religion, or what?

I do hope you will agree that the act of praying is entirely harmless.

No, of course it isn't. Did you not read the example I posted about the prosperity gospel? Losing your home due to defaulting on a mortgage you believe will be divinely intervened over harms the person who believes prayer works. If enough people do the same, then it also harms millions of other people via the contribution to an ongoing housing bubble, and the ensuing economic collapse. (I don't believe this has been shown to be certainly the case, but it is hypothetically a plausible contributor, and so should not be dismissed out of hand.)

Praying for your child to be cured by faith, rather than by medicine, harms the child and the family.

There are tons and tons of examples of prayer causing harm. You just haven't been paying attention to them.

Praying gives people positive obvious psychological effects, optimism, hope, self-reflection, its a form of meditation.

Perhaps, for some. For others, it causes great anxiety and anguish, when prayers are not answered. There are no studies I know of that show that prayer is only good or harmless.

Praying does not give people ideas to fly planes into building, nor does it inspire climate change denialism.

Not sure how you could possibly know that.

Now why is there a need to attack a harmless concept like that? Is that not obsession?

Not harmless.

But even if it was totally harmless, it's still silly. What's wrong with making fun of something silly?

Okay Pulsey, then who are you referring to with "its very sad how some atheists reject the idea of religion and yet cannot stop obsessing themselves over it."? Darkmatter? Hitchslap? Me? Some other un-specified atheists?

What!? What is the topic of this thread? I am talking about the video of course!

No, of course it isn't. Did you not read the example I posted about the prosperity gospel? Losing your home due to defaulting on a mortgage you believe will be divinely intervened over harms the person who believes prayer works. If enough people do the same, then it also harms millions of other people via the contribution to an ongoing housing bubble, and the ensuing economic collapse.

What!? Do you truly believe that? This is so terribly retarded I'm not sure if its a troll!

(I don't believe this has been shown to be certainly the case, but it is hypothetically a plausible contributor, and so should not be dismissed out of hand.)

You pretty much acknowledge how how absolutely retarded your argument is when even you start casting your own doubts. You are clearly being eristic

Not sure how you could possibly know that.

What!? How does praying give people ideas about 9/11 or Climate change? Does a deistical figure advice them on world issues when people pray?

But even if it was totally harmless, it's still silly. What's wrong with making fun of something silly?

There's nothing wrong and I never said there was anything wrong. All I said was that its sad people who declare Religion as a myth are the same people who can't stop talking and making videos on the subject.

This is getting silly...

I do hope you will agree that the act of praying is entirely harmless.

How ignorant is that. There are countless stories of children dying because their parents refused medical treatment over faithhealing and prayers. Some states in america even have some religious exemption LAWS preventing parent to be prosecuted for manslaughter, murder and child neglect if they decide to chose prayer over medicine. Harmless my ass, ignorance is never harmless

Without the church, we would not have had mendelian genetics.

Without the church, not have printing press. Or many many books for that matter.

Without church, we would not have many monasteries and temples at which priests and monks could partake in scientific activity.

Without religion, our entire history could possibly have been entirely different, more barbaric and violent. Not to mention, our first sources of literature would not be here without religion.

So, early genetics, literature, General scientific activity and defense against Barbarism.

And don't even bring up crusade crap. Because on the same side of the coin there was Islam and the Islamic nations of the day were faring very well and were extremely enlightened.

So much bullshit

The Church had all the power and money at the time, scientist and artists were depending on the Church. Everything was tied to the Church. The Church was the authority that decided where the science should go, and if it was going in the "wrong" direction, scientist had to publicly denie the result of their research. Scientist had to fight against the church monopoly on the "explanation of the world" to get the truth out. So don't tell me "without the church" this and that. Whithout the church and religion nobody knows where we would be in terms of scientific progress AND social progress, but i have a feeling that religion certainly slowed humanity's progress. Maybe that at a time, when they first appeared, it could be argued that monotheistic religions had a positive impact, gathering people and organizing society around it. But now we are struggling to free ourselves from these dark ages ideologies that empedes humanity from achieving its potential.

Since only about 83% of the US identify as Christian (google search), 0.3 / 0.83 = 0.36.

Just here to correct wct's earlier error. According to Pew Forum, 70.6% of Americans identify as Christians.

So that would mean the calculation is: .3(.706) = 21.18% of Christians are Bible Literalists. That's about 67 million. 20.8% of those identifying as Christians, identify as Catholics. It's about the same amount. And yes Catholics and Bible Literalists are minority groups within the American Christian movement.

Link: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/


I also love that only 1.6% of Americans identify as Atheists :)

Liberals have tried hard, but God isn't dead in America.

Edited 1/24/2016 19:53:32

There are no liberals in America.

There are no liberals in America.

LOL wut?

@Jai
actually ~40% of americans believe that humans were created as they are today, less that 10000 years ago.
And among the 60% that believes in evolution, only ~30% actually believes that it was through natural processes, and not by divine intervention.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx
http://www.upf.edu/pcstacademy/_docs/Pew-Science_Survey_2009.pdf (p37)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

Edited 1/24/2016 20:24:53