The civil war in Syria started with what many refers to as 'The Arab spring'.* Assad wanted none of those demonstrations, and struck down hard on those who protested.

I am much more interested in the events going on in Europe, as the middle east always had and always will have wars. The paradoxical in defending the actions of immigrants, that is the epitome of ethnocentric behaviour, is perplexing to me. Schengen is ridiculing EU as a whole, displaying the lacking will to act, as nobody wants to pay the bill. Those that accepts refugees, does so with blinks as all they see is cheap labour, not the massive cultural differences.

I fear that all of these recent events (Paris, Cologne, anywhere in Sweden, etc.) will be the drop of water that makes the glass flow over, and either cause a collapse of the European Union, or some kind of uprising caused by the disagreements between the average voter, and the leftist power elite of most modern West and North European societies.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring

What's the actual cost of the collapse of the European Union? Its not as if trade will halt between European partners or there will be continental armed conflict between countries, since European counties enjoy considerably more cooperation than most countries. If the EU collapses, it will be because countries don't want to trade in their sovereignty for some semi/quasi idea of a United Federalized Europe, which ignores cultural and political-philosophy based differences between nations in trying to impose 1-size-fits-all solutions to economic and social problems.

I understand the need to bring your culture with you, but it goes too far when it interferes with the lives of those who aren't part of your culture.

I agree to some extent. In most European countries, ghettos have become a problem that needs to be dealt with. In my honest opinion, it is nonsensical to have an influx of immigrants, when you fail to integrate the ones currently residing in your country. I understand the governments craving for cheap labour, but it is a short sighted plan. That said, both parts are to blame here. The government/country for placing immigrants in certain areas, where they don't have to learn the official language, or in any other way engage in society. The immigrants for the unwillingness to change.

There needs to be a much better way to manage this influx. One that can ensure these people will not die in Syria, but will also be able to root out those that want to bring the chaos of Syria to their destination.

There is no reason for them to come to Europe. A variety of international laws ensures that they never have to leave again once they're here, and that's bad for both Europe and the middle east, as this brain drain will have a longsighted negative impact on Syria, and the other countries of origin.

What's the actual cost of the collapse of the European Union?

Economically it would be substantial. The collapse of EU means the collapse of the Euro. At least over time. Greece would go bankrupt, trading between nations would become problematic as a stable currency is needed for proper trade relations.

1-size-fits-all solutions to economic and social problems.

This is actually one of the biggest problems with the Euro. Normally countries can adjust their currency to account for macroeconomic factors, but since most European nations share their currency, that is no longer possible. This hurts countries with slow GDP growth and/or Trade deficits. Spain and Greece are both brilliant examples of countries that are suffering because of this.

Every conversation about Syria suffers from the same thing. People sit around assigning blame instead of trying to talk about possible solutions.

Honestly, what does it matter who's fault it is at this point? The damage is done, now we have to fix it.

+1, so I made a special list...

How to solve syria's problem permanently in 10 steps:

Easy Mode - "Extermination is better than diplomacy"

1) Nuke the White House (if/when Obama is there)
2) Nuke all major Swedish cities
3) Genocide Iraq's population
4) Nuke Aleppo
5) Nuke Raqqa/Rakka
6) Split the two countries in four because why not
7) First part (Capítal: Damascus) to Al-Assad and supporters
8) Second part (Capital: Some shitpile in central Syria) to Sunnis of the Free Syrian army
9) Third part (Capital: Mosul) to Kurdistan
10) Fourth part (Capital: Baghdad) becomes an iranian puppet state

Medium mode - "It can't be done without some bloodshed and major geopolitical changes."

1) Elect a republican in the USA
2) Start a coalition with NATO and CIS members
3) Have the coalition destroy Raqqa/Rakka
4) Destroy Mosul
5) Have Saudi Arabia annex Qatar
6) Split Syria in four countries
7) Kurdistan, ruled by kurds
8) Sunni Syria, ruled by FSA
9) Alawite Syria, ruled by Al-Assad
10) Western Syria, as a puppet state of Israel

Hard mode - "Keep kebab in kebab's territories"

1) Adopt border security policies in every nation in the Eurozone
2) Pressure Qatar into accepting refugees
3) Let Russia proceed
4) Wait for some big attack in the USA and Obama will act (maybe)
5) Get some popcorn
6) Watch things go on
7) Watch Syria become a clone of post-Saddam Iraq when Al-Assad falls
8) Prepare some fighter jets for the next arab spring fail
9) Accept the fact Putin > Obama
10) Enjoy

Expert mode - "Be nice to Putin and Assad"

1) Find ways to exploit Syria
2) Start dealing with Al-Assad
3) Give him full assistance
4) Start being nice to Putin
5) Pressure Ukraine into giving independence to Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea as long as Russia stops support to further rebels
6) Get what's left of Ukraine in the European Union
7) Joint NATO-Russian actions to defeat the ISIS and FSA
8) Al-Assad now likes both the USA and Russia so no cold war like scenario in the country
9) Ukraine will be bitching and so will Iraq, but who cares? 195 other countries can agree it was for the best.
10) Write fanfic of Obama and Putin

Edited 2/5/2016 04:27:58

Expert mode - 6

Russia being 'ok' with Ukraine joining EU would truly be expert mode. :D

It's not coincidental, that the Cuban missile crisis was avoided due to the disarming of missiles in Turkey. I wonder how Russia would feel about missiles even closer.

Syrian Kurds don't have formal recognized independence last time I checked. No place on the map is named Kurdistan.

Formal independence does not matter much.

Maybe not to you and me, but it sure as hell matters to the actual people. Political legitimacy is not a self-fulfilling prophecy, it requires (sadly) a global consensus. They can't control their own political or historical destiny with the assurance of other countries that they are an independent country that conduct their own affairs.

Formal independence does matter for a few things, so say they do get "formally independent". Then what?

And yes, folk and countries can control their own politic destiny (what is historic destiny? oxymoron). It might be called "illegitimate" by other countries, but it's still there. Not recognising a country is just an annoying thing governments do when they want to take it a step further than cutting all diplomatic ties.

Also, all things considered, I think Syria was considerable better under Bashar Assad.

Who is it under now?

Doing something so the refugees don't have to stay through the foreseeable future, that's something else.

Well, assuming they want to go back, what do you think should be done?

Countries and their people are different entities.

The country is influenced by their folk. But just to show some backing,

52 to at most 38.

It wasn't small in Germany and its city of Cologne. The city is re-enforcing security significantly for it's annual festival that will go on now until Ash Wednesday.

Ok, I looked it up. It's 1 incident, with no deaths. Thinking about how many Arabs there are in Germany, it's a very small portion, probably about 8% (counting nonMuslims), which would make it about 1/10000 Arabs. It's still much higher than Germany, but think about these folk's upbringing. I want to make a scientific analogy here: The Maxwell Spread. These Muslims are at the fast end and will fly away (be imprisoned), especially thinking about their upbringing. The heat applied are the migrants, which admittedly, after looking into this a bit, might need to slow (but not stop) the intake for a bit.

I'm just concerned about how little the media cared about Cologne...
That was probably the point where everyone can draw a line.
But of course, we have to bury it under sob stories of little Syrian orphans.

Köln: No deaths. "Syrian orphans": Unfathomably many deaths.

I'm all for allowing people to live in my country. But when they do behavior that is downright criminal in the country they consider their new home, that's where the line must be drawn.

Noone is saying these folk should not be arrested.

I understand the need to bring your culture with you, but it goes too far when it interferes with the lives of those who aren't part of your culture.

It's usually not just culture, but murders, and violent bandits, which are transcultural.

And with every event like this happening, I see myself seeing eye-to-eye with Donald Trump, who I'd now vote for over Bernie, making him my 3rd choice.

It's important to see it from the big picture. 9999/10000 are relatively harmless.

a few ISIS members can slip in, buy some materials from a hardware store, and kill 20 people.

There's loads of folk who don't understand the makeup of the Mashriq fighters. Let me give an outlook, there are 6 different kinds:

1. Conscripts.
2. Those who think that the Mashriq is their best hope against the Shia.
3. Those who think that the Mashriq is their both hope against foreign powers (Iran (fear from the 1980s)), America, and friends.
4. Recruits who actually believe in the ideology.
5. Foreign fighters.
6. Founders who were originally part of The Base in Iraq.

Only the last 3 are pretty dangerous visiting another country. I put it in order of biggest category to smallest. That's a huge portion of the Mashriq taken out - definitely the majority. As for the rest, the small problem that remains, that'll all be taken care of by the Maxwell Spread.

I am much more interested in the events going on in Europe, as the middle east always had and always will have wars. The paradoxical in defending the actions of immigrants, that is the epitome of ethnocentric behaviour, is perplexing to me. Schengen is ridiculing EU as a whole, displaying the lacking will to act, as nobody wants to pay the bill. Those that accepts refugees, does so with blinks as all they see is cheap labour, not the massive cultural differences.

I fear that all of these recent events (Paris, Cologne, anywhere in Sweden, etc.) will be the drop of water that makes the glass flow over, and either cause a collapse of the European Union, or some kind of uprising caused by the disagreements between the average voter, and the leftist power elite of most modern West and North European societies.

D as in Dumbass, can you please use real words and writing, since I found no point to either paragraph. Live up to your name, eh?

I won't talk about the success/fail of the EU here, this is strictly about Syria, so moving on.

There is no reason for them to come to Europe. A variety of international laws ensures that they never have to leave again once they're here, and that's bad for both Europe and the middle east, as this brain drain will have a longsighted negative impact on Syria, and the other countries of origin.

Quite obviously, there is reason: War. Even if you didn't know the reason, you'd know that there was one by them all coming in the first place, willingly. International laws are broken all the time, as long as you are in NATO, it'll be fine to break some. Even if some are truly very proudly Muslim, they'll go back to live amongst the Muslims. You're pretty vague about "bad", but you specifically say brain drain in Syria. The Syrian "brains", as human, earn the right to move away from their country. Anything else, especially in this situation, is a colossal cagefight. And it's not like brains are a depletable resource. It's like a famine. Bad, but almost always recoverable, and if done right, fast.

Which words did you not understand? I would happily help you look them up in a dictionary. My point of those two paragraphs was to portray my personal view on the main issues of the current crisis.


War is obviously a reason for them to leave Syria, or at least the war plagued parts. However it is not a reason for them to come to Europe specifically. They should be helped in refugee camps in neighboring states (I'm not sure about the English term, so this will have to do) with funding from European countries. This is already happening, but it should happen on a bigger scale, and in an organized and humanitarian way, with way more funding.

---

Even if some are truly very proudly Muslim, they'll go back to live among the Muslims.

You'd be surprised how free healthcare, free money, and the possibility to live among people that share your culture in ghettos, makes people willing to stay.

---

You're pretty vague about "bad"

Please allow me to specify then.

There are lots of reasons to avoid immigration to Europe. From an economical point of view, it's a lot cheaper to give a refugee the same care in a neighboring state, than it is to do it in Europe. Culturally it is also a bad match; especially in Scandinavia as our feminine culture is completely opposite to their masculine.* This difference becomes apparent in cultural clashes, most recently the Swedish social worker that was stabbed to death in the Asylum center she worked in. From a European perspective there's an obvious pro, and an obvious con. The pro is cheap labour, and with Germany's and Sweden's future decrease in their active workforce, they are (Read: were) eager to accommodate this immigrant influx. The obvious con is the strain that this crisis has put on the relations between the member states.

---

The Syrian "brains", as human, earn the right to move away from their country.

Do they earn the right to do so by illegally crossing multiple borders of safe countries, aiming for the most financially beneficial countries? Obviously I've made my own opinion clear, but I would like yours. Furthermore, these 'brains', or as I prefer: Intellectuals, could help rebuild post-war Syria.

---

And it's not like brains are a depletable resource.

Obviously not. But who should then teach these 'empty' brains, once the conflict is over?

1 - We could send teachers and translators, and it would be awfully expensive, and probably not very effective.
2 - We could let the radical teach; which is probably what's going to happen.
3 - We could limit the brain drain, and have all the human resources ready whenever.

Besides, in Europe a large percentage of these immigrants will either be unemployed, or employed in manual labour jobs. There will be exceptions to this rule, but overall that's how it will be.

---

Way to call me out on my name, after you've just implicitly concluded, that your oversimplified categorisations 1 to 3 are not a danger to other countries. I could expand on that, but if you think long and hard about it, I'm sure you can figure out why men armed with weapons are a danger to countries they visit, while their families are under the influence of this extremist group.

* Hofstede's cultural dimensions - You can check it out here: http://geert-hofstede.com/sweden.html

Which words did you not understand? I would happily help you look them up in a dictionary. My point of those two paragraphs was to portray my personal view on the main issues of the current crisis.

Muscles don't work without ligaments.

However it is not a reason for them to come to Europe specifically. They should be helped in refugee camps in neighboring states (I'm not sure about the English term, so this will have to do) with funding from European countries. This is already happening, but it should happen on a bigger scale, and in an organized and humanitarian way, with way more funding.

The Gulf States aren't accepting any migrants, and they should, but they aren't. Jordan is already overflowing, with 20% its population now Syrian refugees, and it is not getting enough help, and Turkey could do better, though it seems to me like it's doing far better than EU. The UN humanitarian fund grant Syrians in Jordan is what, 30 or 40% of what was promised?

And why does geography matter? Obviously practically, it's easiest to get there, but otherwise?

You'd be surprised how free healthcare, free money, and the possibility to live among people that share your culture in ghettos, makes people willing to stay.

Well, in my opinion, the welfare system in Europe should be greatly lowered, but anyhow, it's there, but the proud Muslims who find a "ghetto", well, there will be a foreign community. They dissolve, just slower (think sugarcube in water ag. sugar dust in water). So what? In the Ukrainian SW panhandle, ethnic Ukrainians are the majority by far, but there are several foreign towns, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Gagauz. I don't think the Ukrainian culture is somehow getting infested with Balkan culture.

From an economical point of view, it's a lot cheaper to give a refugee the same care in a neighboring state, than it is to do it in Europe.

Maybe, but can and will the other countries give that care?

Culturally it is also a bad match; especially in Scandinavia as our feminine culture is completely opposite to their masculine.

Culturally, it's a diverse match. Just since Arabic culture is obviously different from Swedish culture doesn't mean anything. The Syrians probably had to adapt their outlooks due to their situation, and there's no grounds why it shouldn't happen again.

This difference becomes apparent in cultural clashes, most recently the Swedish social worker that was stabbed to death in the Asylum center she worked in.

1 murder? That's all you've to say for cultural clashes? And this isn't culture, as I say before - it's banditry.

From a European perspective there's an obvious pro, and an obvious con. The pro is cheap labour, and with Germany's and Sweden's future decrease in their active workforce, they are (Read: were) eager to accommodate this immigrant influx.

And not, y'know, shriveling up to a stick with old folk and no new folk getting made.

Do they earn the right to do so by illegally crossing multiple borders of safe countries, aiming for the most financially beneficial countries?

It doesn't matter where they go, but they earn to go.

Furthermore, these 'brains', or as I prefer: Intellectuals, could help rebuild post-war Syria.

Well, the war's not over, and it's not going to be for a very long while.

Obviously not. But who should then teach these 'empty' brains, once the conflict is over?

1 - We could send teachers and translators, and it would be awfully expensive, and probably not very effective.
2 - We could let the radical teach; which is probably what's going to happen.
3 - We could limit the brain drain, and have all the human resources ready whenever.

Besides, in Europe a large percentage of these immigrants will either be unemployed, or employed in manual labour jobs. There will be exceptions to this rule, but overall that's how it will be.

It depends on how the conflict ends. If it ends with the Syrian government "winning", there's not going to be enough money to pay anything, definitely not these "intellectauax" or "brains" aren't going to want to work there. And 3 is not a humane choice. Country be damned, they're all evil anyway, but a fellow, this is who needs to be cared about.

Besides, in Europe a large percentage of these immigrants will either be unemployed, or employed in manual labour jobs. There will be exceptions to this rule, but overall that's how it will be.

So?

that your oversimplified categorisations 1 to 3 are not a danger to other countries. I could expand on that, but if you think long and hard about it, I'm sure you can figure out why men armed with weapons are a danger to countries they visit, while their families are under the influence of this extremist group. I could expand on that, but if you think long and hard about it, I'm sure you can figure out why men armed with weapons are a danger to countries they visit, while their families are under the influence of this extremist group.

Even assuming that their whole family was captured and not killed, and the family tie was known, there still are going to be at least 1/4 who can't bring themselves to that sacrifice. So "expand" on that.

Xapy, what is "the Maxwell Spread"? Googled it and found nothing related to this discussion, so I'm at a loss. (Also, I haven't read this whole thread, so I may have missed it.)

and the possibility to live among people that share your culture in ghettos

Are ghettos still tolerated in Europe? Shameful.

Muscles don't work without ligaments.

I honestly like your analogy, but unfortunately it's not true: The heart, arrector pili muscles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrector_pili_muscle), the smooth muscle of the gastro-intestinal tract (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Muscular_layer), and probably other examples. There are also many animals that literally have no (or very few) bones or shells, and hence no (or very few) ligaments: Octopuses, worms, jellyfish, slugs, sponges, nudibranchs, anemones, and probably many others.

Edited 2/5/2016 16:05:18

tl;dr most of it, but saw this: " Do you have any personal ties to France?"
Yes, I do. My mother and grandmother are Belgians descended from French, and I have visited France several times. Furthermore, American and French culture, while different, are fairly close and i can relate to them.

Also, xpapy seems to be making idiotic statements on the micro level, such as
"Also, all things considered, I think Syria was considerable better under Bashar Assad.


Who is it under now?"

Seriously, do you actually not know, or do you think Assad still rules? Either way, you're an idiot.

You also compare Bulgars and Albanians in the same way we compare Western and Muslim. There are many similarities between various ethnic cultures in Europe, while Islam is fundamentally opposed to the West. Look at polls of how many Muslims in the West support terrorists.


"I understand the need to bring your culture with you, but it goes too far when it interferes with the lives of those who aren't part of your culture.


It's usually not just culture, but murders, and violent bandits, which are transcultural."
Murder may be 'transcultural', but look at Nordic crime rates before/after refugees entered.


"Köln: No deaths. "Syrian orphans": Unfathomably many deaths."
We are upset because the rapes of hundreds are quite preventable. The Syrians are at war; Europe is not. War expects casualties. Peace does not. Again, I will not apologize for the fact I care more for relatable Westerners than Muslims.


"1 murder? That's all you've to say for cultural clashes? And this isn't culture, as I say before - it's banditry."
More than one (see 15 year old boy stabbed for protecting female counterpart). Also, hundreds of rapes and men who look into schoolyards at little girls. And this is certainly culture; the Muslim culture disrespects women and gives these men justification for their crimes. Notice the lack of rape in the Nordic countries before tens of thousands of Muslims entered.


" Just since Arabic culture is obviously different from Swedish culture doesn't mean anything."
It does when Swedish culture allows women to dress loosely and Arab culture allows them to rape them. THEN it becomes a problem.


"This was such a small happening, I recall reading a short news article the day after about it, but pretty much forgot. Noone else talked about it afterwards. I don't believe it's being "antagonised". "
Maybe, but the fact "Noone else talked about it afterwards" is rather worrying, yes? If hundreds of neo-Nazis raped hundreds on New Years, there would be considerable backlash and coverage. The fact their skin is brown makes them a protected class to media members.

"So why do you propose more war?"
because if we don't half-ass it and we go in guns blazing and utterly ruthless, we can save lives and actually have less war in the long run. Look at The March to the Sea by Sherman; he broke the Confederacy and brought the war to a close far sooner than it otherwise would have bee, thus saving lives.

Edited 2/5/2016 16:42:12

Xapy, what is "the Maxwell Spread"? Googled it and found nothing related to this discussion, so I'm at a loss. (Also, I haven't read this whole thread, so I may have missed it.)

I'm surprised you didn't find it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%E2%80%93Boltzmann_distribution

I honestly like your analogy, but unfortunately it's not true: The heart, arrector pili muscles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrector_pili_muscle), the smooth muscle of the gastro-intestinal tract (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_gastrointestinal_tract#Muscular_layer), and probably other examples. There are also many animals that literally have no (or very few) bones or shells, and hence no (or very few) ligaments: Octopuses, worms, jellyfish, slugs, sponges, nudibranchs, anemones, and probably many others.

Well, the picture in my mind was a human without any ligaments, how good would the muscles be for him? But point taken.

Yes, I do. My mother and grandmother are Belgians descended from French, and I have visited France several times. Furthermore, American and French culture, while different, are fairly close and i can relate to them.

Then that's justifiable.

Who is it under now?"

Seriously, do you actually not know, or do you think Assad still rules> Either way, you're an idiot.

Bashar Assad still rules 1/3 of the country, and has the coveted UN "formal recognition" of being Syria's ruler.

@Жұқтыру

I am honestly not sure if you're an SJW, or just an eristic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and go with the latter.

---

The Gulf States aren't accepting any migrants, and they should, but they aren't. Jordan is already overflowing, with 20% its population now Syrian refugees, and it is not getting enough help, and Turkey could do better, though it seems to me like it's doing far better than EU. The UN humanitarian fund grant Syrians in Jordan is what, 30 or 40% of what was promised?

I think it's lower than 30%, and it's completely unacceptable. We should financially back these countries with 100% or more of what we've promised.

---

And why does geography matter? Obviously practically, it's easiest to get there, but otherwise?

I refer to my statement regarding cultural clashes (Notice how it's plural, I'm sorry I only gave one example, I refer to the interwebs for more.)

---

Well, in my opinion, the welfare system in Europe should be greatly lowered, but anyhow, it's there, but the proud Muslims who find a "ghetto", well, there will be a foreign community. They dissolve, just slower (think sugarcube in water ag. sugar dust in water). So what? In the Ukrainian SW panhandle, ethnic Ukrainians are the majority by far, but there are several foreign towns, Albanians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Gagauz. I don't think the Ukrainian culture is somehow getting infested with Balkan culture.

I agree. It should either be lowered or better governed. Let's not try to copy America though. Ghettos don't resolve. That's what the last 40 years have shown anyone observing any country in Europe. Sure, some people settle down in smaller towns etc. but those are the exception, not the rule.

---

Maybe, but can and will the other countries give that care?

We should fund it, they should host it. There are several countries already doing it, it's just not funded, so famine is an actual problem in the refugee camps there.

---

Culturally, it's a diverse match. Just since Arabic culture is obviously different from Swedish culture doesn't mean anything. The Syrians probably had to adapt their outlooks due to their situation, and there's no grounds why it shouldn't happen again.

I am all for integration and assimilation, but the fact of the matter is, that a big percentage of these cultures simple doesn't do either, but instead establish parallel societies within ghettos.

---

1 murder? That's all you've to say for cultural clashes? And this isn't culture, as I say before - it's banditry.

Do you understand the general meaning of 'most recently'? It was meant as an example. I refer to the interwebs for more, or if you're not sure how to properly use google, I can provide you with links to horrendous videos, articles about cologne new years eve, everyday life in Sweden, etc. etc.

Considering that most other migrating cultures doesn't establish organized crime gangs, parallel societies, attack women, belittle women and so forth, I am positive that this is more than just banditry.

---

And 3 is not a humane choice.

"International laws are broken all the time, as long as you are in NATO, it'll be fine to break some."

Didn't you just say that? If Syria loses the majority of their upper working class and upper class, then it will just a matter of time, before we get another conflict there.

---

So?

So we are depriving Syria of well-educated people, so that they can clean our staircases, drive us around, pick up our garbage, etc. It might seem like a win/win situation, but it's actually the opposite.

---

Even assuming that their whole family was captured and not killed, and the family tie was known, there still are going to be at least 1/4 who can't bring themselves to that sacrifice. So "expand" on that.

While I do not have any first hand information about Islamic State, or other groups that are active in Syria, I do have first hand knowledge of how Talibob worked. They were surprisingly well informed, and family ties would easily be discovered. All information do however point to ISIL being more organized than Taliban.

Edited 2/6/2016 00:15:01

I am honestly not sure if you're an SJW, or just an eristic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and go with the latter.

That's not a good beginning to your speech, especially when I had to look up SJW and eristic (and I said cool it with the jargon, D to the Dumbass), and pretty sure those are insults. I just find it easier to go by arguments bit by bit, and it's harder (for me, anyway) to build an argument rather than to show how bad all the other arguments are. I do not "argue for the sake of conflict, as opposed to resolving conflict.".

I agree. It should either be lowered or better governed. Let's not try to copy America though. Ghettos don't resolve. That's what the last 40 years have shown anyone observing any country in Europe. Sure, some people settle down in smaller towns etc. but those are the exception, not the rule.

You haven't really said what's bad about "ghetti". And America has some bad leftist policies, much less than EU, still, though.

Maybe, but can and will the other countries give that care?

We should fund it, they should host it. There are several countries already doing it, it's just not funded, so famine is an actual problem in the refugee camps there.

Who is we? We're not rulers of countries, here. Noone important is going to listen. While what you say would be good, it's not going to happen.

Do you understand the general meaning of 'most recently'? It was meant as an example. I refer to the interwebs for more, or if you're not sure how to properly use google, I can provide you with links to horrendous videos, articles about cologne new years eve, everyday life in Sweden, etc. etc.

Considering that most other migrating cultures doesn't establish organized crime gangs, parallel societies, attack women, belittle women and so forth, I am positive that this is more than just banditry.

I bet 9999/10000 these migrants did nothing. All your evidence here is mostly just incidents and not heuristic stats. I can show you cases where a German murdered another German, well, time to get the violent German culture out of Germany, and save its folk from these barbarians.

"International laws are broken all the time, as long as you are in NATO, it'll be fine to break some."

Didn't you just say that? If Syria loses the majority of their upper working class and upper class, then it will just a matter of time, before we get another conflict there.

It's one thing to do something to someone that they don't like, it's a much worse thing if you sentence them to rot to be killed within 5 days.

So we are depriving Syria of well-educated people, so that they can clean our staircases, drive us around, pick up our garbage, etc. It might seem like a win/win situation, but it's actually the opposite.

Again, everyone as human earns the right to move from their country if they want to. Even if they stayed in Jordan or Turkey, secondworld countries, they're not going to want to go to some country that's had every building built of brick smashed to smithereens. Country be damned, as I said earlier.

While I do not have any first hand information about Islamic State, or other groups that are active in Syria, I do have first hand knowledge of how Talibob worked. They were surprisingly well informed, and family ties would easily be discovered. All information do however point to ISIL being more organized than Taliban.

That's fair enough. An answer then, is to have a sniper follow them about for a few months.

To begin with, we have to understand the root cause of the Syrian Civil War. It was not Assad slaughtering his citizens that led to rebels, the FSA was organized by the nearby Sunni countries. Saudi Arabia and Turkey especially, and within weeks there was NATO planes flying illegally into Syrian airspace aiding and assisting them. There's numerous leaked recordings, videos and documents of Turkish and Saudi involvement in the war and the fact they think ISIS is a tool that can be manipulated. The whole "Assad used gas on citizens!" is a complete lie that's been debunked. The Turkish government in particular has been extremely involved, Saudi would be more but they're busy in Yemem. This is not an opinion, this is a well-documented fact. The Western coalition funds the FSA, but these are not "moderate" rebels like you hear so many politicians preach it. It's a fact that they work alongside ISIS, sell weapons cheaply to ISIS/Al-Qaeda and they themselves kill civilians indiscriminately. Once again, this is not an opinion but a fact. There's hundreds of videos of the FSA killed civilians, strangely not that many of the Syrian army. Weird how that goes, huh? The FSA itself is a bunch of factions, it's not a well-organized group in the first place and their objectives are fairly unclear other than overthrow Assad and help ISIS.

There's historical feuds between these Sunni and Shi'a countries, but even putting aside that there's extremely geopolitical reasons why countries like Turkey are so involved. The Kurds. Or better yet known as a people with tens of millions but no country, who've been committing terrorist attacks in Turkey and fighting in Syria/Iraq for Kurdistan. Their country, not a zone in Iraq that they're "allowed" to be automated. We're talking a country they control, which takes a chunk out of Iraq/Syria/Turkey and is called Kurdistan. This is extremely hard for Turkey since they see the Kurds as terrorists that're willing to do pretty much anything indiscriminately to make this a reality. The PKK (Kurdish group in Turkey) has committed terrorism, while they have different goals they do work together with the Syrian group of Kurds. Turkey is deathly scared of Kurdistan becoming a reality, it's a two-way road and Turkey has committed atrocities against the Kurdish people. Basically, since the Kurds are already autonomous in Iraq and if they win in Syria they'll be practically guaranteed a slice of land... all eyes will be pointed towards Turkey.

The actual solutions to the problems
1) Western coalition stops helping the FSA
2) Impose sanctions on countries that help ISIS and other terrorists in Syria.
3) Enact a travel ban to Syria.
4) Start helping Assad and be in a situation where they can ensure in 2021 he'll leave office when his term is up.
5) Have a military safezone in Syria, under agreement with the Syrian government.
6) Stop taking in refugees, 4/5 of them aren't even Syrians. Most of them are from poorly developed African and Asian countries and rape our women, fuck that.

Then just sit back and let the Syrian government win with help from other countries like Iran and Russia with organized coordinated attacks on ISIS with the Syrian government instead of this senseless and hypocritical foreign bombing policies in most Western countries that help and kill ISIS at the same time. We've seen the Syrian government winning dramatically in the past few months, we can't mess this up.

"everyone as human earns the right to move from their country if they want to."
Says who? I don't believe that anyone should be able to go anywhere they want. They should stay there and fix their problems, not give them to us.

I used to be a sort of war hawk (I believed the US should intervene as much as is possible.)

My opinions have greatly changed, though.

In my opinion, the US should just leave ISIS to be dealt with by Russia and Syria, with the sole thing I think we should do being to recognize Kurdistan as an independent nation.

Here's an idea for everyone!

Lets all pull out of the Middle East and not give aid to any of them, in 25 years they'll either all be dead or fix their own fucking problems.

All of this after Obama stops being a pussy and turns ISIS into a road of bodies (which he won't do, because he is a Muslim too).