Hurray! My favorite Spaniard debater is here :D

Pablo :) so where shall I begin?

Oh, seriously? Is that Angry man spreading his propaganda again? Deal with it, even non Spaniards can tell you how we are fine.

Yes it's me the Angry Basque! Lucho por la libertad de mi pueblo!

And another thing: Koala, I know you are a proud leftist. So, why are you that racist against us?

I'm not racist, my best friend as I already told you is Spanish... he is a proud Spaniard (the weird thing is that he is also part French, and neglects in some extent his Basque origins, that perhaps because he hated the Basque class we had together x) anyway long story).
I am not racist against Spaniards but I hate their government and rulers as long as they keep interfering with the Basques. You have no right to command the will of a whole people. I am leftist yes and Abertzale (meaning adhering to the Basque cause), and what about you Pablo? sure I heard you were also leftist but it seems you are also a plain blind Spanish nationalist, shall i remind you continuously neglect Franco's wrongdoing, I already told you that people in Euskadi were shot just because they spoke Basque, do you think that separatism came from nothing?

No, Spain deserved it in some ways. The 40 years of dictatorship has awaken the spirits of the Basques or the Catalans because they were barely considered as second class citizens, this was a kind of apartheid you know, this went too far.
This is why now Spain is "paying" these 40 years of torture, humiliation, destruction. I told you also that my father almost died in the 80s because of the GAL shooting randomly people in a Abertzale bar not even supporting ETA and this was not in Spain but in France! How would you react if France did the same thing? My father also lost a good friend of him playing football (for people that do not know it yet, GAL is a terrorist group against ETA created by the Spanish state, illegally murdering people in the French controlled part of the Basque Country this defies International Law and Spain has yet not paid for this crime, you have a very good French movie named "GAL" released recently that I advise you to watch)

Tl;DR: Just explaining to Pablito where the separatist movements come from (Franquism) and why Spain deserved it finally after 40 years of dictatorship and terror where the Basques or Catalans were second class citizens.

Edited 2/12/2016 13:26:15

Admit it. You are a closed mind Basque nationalist, whose arguments are hate against a "common enemy" who is also worse than your "nation". I have heard that ideology many times before, in Nazi Germany, or Francoist Spain. You use far-right arguments, yet you either don't realise, or don't even care.

The close minded nationalist is you Pablo, refusing to listen to others, if the Catalans or the Basques want a referendum about self-determination, this is perfectly justified, and defended by the United Nations. So one day Spain will have to let them decide whether or not the Catalans or the Basques want to stay or leave Spain.

The close minded ones, refusing peace are the Spaniards, not the Basques, refusing to be part of the International Peace Conference Summit held in San Sebastian organized by the Basque citizens' group Lokarri, yes you heard it well: a group of citizens launched it not Spain, because the Spanish government truly does not give a fuck about peace, they just want to keep conveying an image of evilness from the Basques and misinforming the Spaniards about the Basques real intentions, this is why there is so much hatred toward us.
This conference under Kofi Annan, former secretary of the UN, with many delegations and famous personalities such as Jimmy Carter (former US president) or Bertie Ahern (former PM of Ireland) were also part of this summit, and Spain (how surprising) refused to be part of it, because they want to ruin everything, and by dangerously considering any Basque wanting freedom as a terrorist, this will just alienate even more the Basques from Spain you know.
Remember the terrorist attack in 2004 in Atocha? The former PM of Spain Aznar without even having any proof of what he was saying stated that it was led by ETA, guess what it was Al Qaeda... Keep making stupid confusions.
It's been 5 years that ETA officially renounced and announced its ceasefire, and this was mainly thanks to the achievements made during this summit, Spain has nothing to do with this, they never helped to fight terrorism, they just worsened the situation even more (see GAL). And furthermore instead of blaming the Basques about ETA, you know that ETA is a monster which traces its roots from Franquism, and the Spanish Government continuously fed that monster with stupid and dangerous decisions even after Spain became a "democracy".

And breaking the Myth (certainly conveyed by some Spanish newspapers bashing continuously the Basques such as ABC or El Mundo), the separatists do not want a secluded nation, they want to be a full member of the European Union, movements for independence does have future, what has no future is supremacist nationalism (the very Spanish nationalism you are defending), the Basques actually once achieving independence do not want to stay alone in a closed world, you would have known it if you knew a little bit of Basque culture: the Basques are great explorers and shipbuilders and were always open to foreign cultures, the first written poem in Basque was about the Basque language which was to be revealed and spread to the world: ”Euskara jalgi hadi plazara, Euskara jalgi hadi mundura!” (Bernard Detchepare, Lingua Vasconum Primitiae, 1545).

The people for independence want a Basque nation part of the European Union, this is actually the future of Europe like it or not: the oldish big nations as we know will disappear and let the smaller people to have their own nation inside a Federal Europe, respecting all ethnicities, cultures and languages. Scotland, Flanders, Catalonia, Wales or Euskadi will be full members of it one day, as I told you a long time ago, we are already achieving a partnership between north and south Basque lands getting beyond the formal borders of Spain and France: an European city is currently created between Bayonne and San Sebastian. The symbolic signs across the Franco-Spanish borders with "France" or "Spain" have been suppressed last year and replaced by the traditional names of the Basques provinces such as Lapurdi/Labourd (in the French side around Bayonne) and Gipuzkoa (Spanish side around San sebastian).


TL;DR? Here I explain to Pablito that the Spanish government never wanted peace at all, they never planned to be part of the recent Peace talks led by personalities such as Kofi Annan, I am here also proving that the Basques are not a secluded people at all, they throughout history proved to be very open, great seafarers and explorers that the Spanish Kingdom exploited to establish their gigantic empire, but what the Basques can't admit is not being free and ruled by a foreign power such as Spain or France acting like Colonial Powers.

Edited 2/12/2016 13:45:31

And meanwhile, I am going to say some facts: PNV, main Basque party, is not separatist.

Did you read me? I clearly said they weren't (openly) separatist earlier, if you would bother read me.

Navarre, even though governed by a nationalist coalition, is not even Basque. They don't want to be Basque. They have an older, own history, than the other Basque provinces.

That just proves you know nothing about our history. Navarre is Basque, its origins and roots are Basque: Navarre was built by the Vascones (or Vascons) a tribe who once inhabited what is roughly nowadays Navarre + North Aragon + La Rioja, and guess what the name itself "Basque" came from the Vascons (Navarre also is a Basque term from “Naba” meaning: flat land surrounded by mountains).

The Vascons also gave their name to Gascony (once known as Vasconia, the province in France roughly between Bordeaux and Toulouse) because during the Dark Ages when the Germanic invasions occured, the Vascons who were barely romanized (hence the survival of Basque) invaded the old Roman province of Aquitania, and rebasquified it (this is the theory of "Late Vasconisation") since before the Roman rule, Aquitania or Novempopulania was also inhabited by proto-basque tribes. The Vascons spoke an old form of Basque (archeological discoveries of the Roman period or earlier artifacts with written extract of protobasque proved that Basque changed surprisingly little).

The first kings of Navarre (or during that period the Kingdom of Pamplona) had a Basque name : Eneko Arista (Eneko means in Basque "son of" or "my child/my little one" the spanish name Inigo derives from it, Arista (nowadays spelled Haritza) means Oak or "to be resilient" and is a symbol of resistance strong leadership).

And believe me or not the Kings of Navarre actually spoke the "Linguae Navarrorum" (=Basque) until the 12th century when the old dynasties of the true Navarrese was replaced by a Frankish/French one because Sancho VII the Strong (or Antso in Basque) was childless, so Navarre after this was ruled by the Dynasty of Champagne, and the Kings alonside Latin either spoke old French or Occitan, but never Spanish nor Navarrese romance anyway. Even the Navarrese nobility spoke basque between them: Buruzagi is an old term for “leader” for someone ruling an area for the King in old Navarre, and Maizter (from Master) is something like Mayor.

Navarre is the Heartland of the Basques, the true independent state the Basques ever achieved to have, the Spanish and the French/Frankish during centuries tried to denature it and make it a “Spanish realm” or a French one (the French Kings were traditionally said to be "King of France and Navarre" since Henry IV) whereas it truly isnt.

So why are many Navarrese against the Basques? Difficult story, but if you look at a map of Navarre, some parts of it are Romance speaking since old times (example: Tudela), and never considered themselves as Basques, however 3/4 of Navarre at least until the 19th century was Basque Speaking, but was heavily Romancized after this, there was a great work of shame led by the Spanish state towards Basque speakers, since not so long ago you could hear old Spaniards saying to Basque speakers "Hablame en Cristiano" ("Speak in a Christian Language) because they truly believed we were still barbarian pagans and heretics...

Nowadays only 10% of the Navarrese speak Basque, a very ancient dialect is now extinct (Roncalese) since the 90s, congratulations! You almost successfully denatured Navarre entirely, sadly for you the last elections in 2015 proved that the Navarrese were finally recovering their old and true identity. The Basque country is nothing without Navarre.

And the last one: DURING THE CENTRALIST, OPPRESIVE, FRANCOIST RÉGIME, CATALAN KIDS HAD FIVE WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CATALAN LANGUAGE. NOWADAYS, CATALAN KIDS HAVE JUST TWO WEEKLY HOURS OF EDUCATION IN CASTILIAN LANGUAGE.

well congrats, you are more brainwashed than I thought, the Catalan culture and language suffered greatly during the Franquist regime, and you dare defend a dictatorial regime in your post? who is the pro Franquist one here? Que vergüenza!

In other words, Catalan speaking families had more rights during the dictatorship than Spanish speaking families nowadays. Just another proof of how totalitarian are Catalan Nationalist parties. They send propaganda by their regional (supposedly neutral) TV, they brainwash the kids since they are really young, they manipulate their history so they make their people believe they are oppressed, etc. Nationalism is what it is. And, luckily, most people in the EU already know.

Anything which is deconstructing the Spanish myth is brainwashing the people? Stop being stubborn, and let the Catalans choose their destiny, like the UK allowed the Scots to vote, what's wrong with Spain? If the Catalans vote no then the problem would be solved. And if the Catalans leave, well life is not over, you would lost the richest region but that way, take it as a chance, it may finally help the Spaniards to pull your finger out! And they would finally survive on their own as they are currently not able to help by themselves...
Nevertheless if Spain keeps being stubborn, remember what happened in Ireland during the Irish War of Independence? I guess you do not want a civil war like what happened there, so the Spanish government should stop encouraging these violence sentiments and encourage democracy and hence self-determination.


Tl;DR? As Pablito does not know anything apparently about the Basque history, I was just explaining (succinctly) our history, and why Spain should allow these people to have a self determination referendum.

Edited 2/12/2016 14:13:47

So much drama

And if the Catalans leave, well life is not over

Spain would be.

Are History and discussions about culture "drama" now? Find a better definition of Drama. And stop trolling randomly threads that you are not interested in.

Oh god, walls of text again... Spain and France are both relevant, deal with it.

^ too illiterate to even read my TL;DR points? x)

Koala, two fast things, before I start answering everything:

1) You are assuming I don't want them to vote. What I don't want is an illegal referendum, because I will never allow anyone break the rules. If it is made with the approval from Spaniards, I wouldn't even care. They are in no way better than us to decide which laws they can break.

2) Hypocrite. Do you seriously think I have never criticized Francoist Regime? I did even in my previous walltext. I have said several times to you, in other times "Fuck Franco, I don't care about him". You should actually remember it. And, to clarify: I am not a leftist, I don't know who told you that. I am a progressive liberal. Again, tell me how is that compatible with a conservative dictatorship, like Francoist one.

Now, ETA. Your only argument is "Oh ETA might not be that good but Spanish oppressors had a counterterrorist group for 5 years".

The GAL, were a secret group that, when it was discovered, it made its leaders GO TO PRISON. By the Spanish Justice. I doubt you would put your "beloved" ETA leaders in prison.

The GAL was horrible, true. They killed 26 people for 5 years. But does it make ETA good? Tell me how! ETA killed 829 (official) to 858 (claimed) people, for more than 50 years. I don't mind whether they kill 26 or 858, but if they are ready to kill, they must be rejectable. Why should we have negociated with terrorists? Would you see USA, Russia or the EU negotiating with Daesh? Daesh and Eta and Gal are equally bad. From the single moment they are willing to murder a single person, they should be excluded from any democratic system, and punished for their acts.

The US funds Daesh.

Also, "self-determination".

UN gives a **** about your will of independence. They have never supported any kind of separatist movement from Spain. However, they have instead called for unity and cooperation among individuals, as well as in the Spanish case. If you were ready to inform yourself, you would know about the UN Resolution #2625, where they made it clear: self-determination is in any way not directed to break a sovereign, democratic, and representative state. Catalonia, Euskadi, they are both autonomous, and represented. In other words: if you want to keep defending your referendum, do it, but don't try to put the UN on your side. The international community has already shown support to Spain at many times, and you perfectly know it: No country would recognise an unilateral secession.

Tl;Dr version: Catalonia or Euskadi would become the new Nagorno-Karabakh, ignored by everyone else. The only you can do is negotiate concrete reforms, or you will not achieve anything.

Also, I don't mind if you have a trans-state metro area. We are not France, we don't mind what you do at regional level as long as it doesn't affect national level. Wanna make a transcontinental Basque city? Go ahead.

And you talk about great Basque explorers, marines, and such. The same ones who were proud Spaniards / Frenchmen, you mean? Actually, in my profile Biography I quote a Basque man, Blas de Lezo, who leaded one of the most humiliating defeats in British war history, and resisted the World's biggest amphibious operation (until Normandy during WW2) against Cartagena de Indias. Most Basque great men were also Spanish great men. Don't forget it, when you lay claim to history for your ideology.

Another invent of yours, is the fact that I never said Navarre hasn't always spoken Basque. What I say is that they do not feel Basque, but Navarrese. Because their historic identity is stronger than its linguistic identity, even in many Basque speakers.

The "Hablame en Cristiano" is not because of you, Mr. Ego ;) It is a common saying when you can't understand the other's statement. Or when, in this case, you can't understand the other's language. No one thinks you are barbaric, for sure. And if Roncalese Basque is extinct is not because of us, but because Navarre people doesn't speak it. Don't blame us for everything, damn. "Espanyaensroba" is nothing new.

And, as I said at the beginning, I personally don't oppose them being asked. But I won't allow their democratically-elected government to break rules. I already know a majority of both Basques and Catalans refuse independence, and that amount is even bigger if that means leaving the EU. But if they were let to break rules, THEN it would be when the Spanish state would be weak, even treating differently their citizens. Never, ever. Negociate it, or no referendum will ever be recognised.

Oh, and about the Spanish invents I said:

First electric submarine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peral_Submarine

Autogyro (precursor of helicopter, so not technically an helicopter, but still invented by us): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogyro

Spain will never divide. Many spaniards would fight for its unity. Some catalan bourgeoisie wont divide ages of common history and brotherhood.

Be carefull with what you say, because i saw some comments defending a terrorist group that killed a thousand inocents in Spain and France, ETA. You use internet anonymity to say things you dont say in your life.


I love my country, and your hate comments wont change my mind.
¡CIERRA ESPAÑA!

Edited 2/12/2016 17:19:24

ETA also killed many innocent Basques that have nothing to do with politics.......ETA has been so disastrous for Spain (including basque country) as they were in his day the government of general Franco, or the GAL.

Mucho gilipollas hay por aquí defendiendo gilipolleces. Hay que leer más y hablar menos, ser mas respetuoso y menos agresivo.

Mientras el mundo lucha por unirse, en España sigue habiendo los típicos reprimidos que lo único que intenta es separarse, buscar confrontaciones y mostrar como de grande es su polla.

Grow up kids, shut up and play warlight

Today I got across four basques (I assume they were, since they were using "EusK" on their clan tag and their emblem was the basque flag) in CoD Black Ops 3.

Christ, never seen someone throw the game so goddamn hard. If they fight for their independence as 'skilfully' as they play, then drop the "Independentzia!" stuff before you're put to shame.

1) You are assuming I don't want them to vote. What I don't want is an illegal referendum, because I will never allow anyone break the rules. If it is made with the approval from Spaniards, I wouldn't even care. They are in no way better than us to decide which laws they can break.

2) Hypocrite. Do you seriously think I have never criticized Francoist Regime? I did even in my previous walltext. I have said several times to you, in other times "Fuck Franco, I don't care about him". You should actually remember it. And, to clarify: I am not a leftist, I don't know who told you that. I am a progressive liberal. Again, tell me how is that compatible with a conservative dictatorship, like Francoist one.

Pablo, two fast answers:

1)Illegal referendum? Illegal according to Spain you mean? Spaniards have no approval to make, if the Basques want independence that's their choice, not the Spaniards'.

2) The Hypocrite is you, you did criticize the Franquist regime, but here you were praising their actions in Catalonia. How can you even find a positive thing they made, since there are none. Catalonia under Franco was a shit place, I know people that went to Catalonia in the 70s, it was a place of great misery, and the Catalans there were as I told you earlier second class citizens living in places like Barcelona in shantytowns or slum areas.

Now, ETA. Your only argument is "Oh ETA might not be that good but Spanish oppressors had a counterterrorist group for 5 years".

The GAL, were a secret group that, when it was discovered, it made its leaders GO TO PRISON. By the Spanish Justice. I doubt you would put your "beloved" ETA leaders in prison.

You are kidding right? “secret group”? Ahahah... This group was created by the Spanish government, so tell me how they could ignore its existence? Of course they will never admit they openly created it, because then the Spanish State would be criminal and would have to pay greatly for this: first by killing innocents, but also by not respecting International Law when they were raiding in France illegally, I actually cant understand how the French was that much lazy and coward to not take actions against Spain or sue them to international courts.

The GAL was horrible, true. They killed 26 people for 5 years. But does it make ETA good? Tell me how! ETA killed 829 (official) to 858 (claimed) people, for more than 50 years. I don't mind whether they kill 26 or 858, but if they are ready to kill, they must be rejectable. Why should we have negociated with terrorists? Would you see USA, Russia or the EU negotiating with Daesh? Daesh and Eta and Gal are equally bad. From the single moment they are willing to murder a single person, they should be excluded from any democratic system, and punished for their acts.

I never defended ETA stop putting words in my mouth. The thing is every time we talk about independence you will answer ETA, for you separatists are terrorists. ETA did stopped its activity, and all I said is that the Spanish State did not helped at all, they even worsened the situation, the Spanish government is not wanting peace, because it would ruin their efforts to denigrate the Basques, they do not want a peaceful Basque Country because they know that if the Basques achieve democratically and peacefully the process for selfdetermination, they are screwed.
ETA killed almost one thousand people and so you will blame the Basques for this? ETA is a monster that was created under Franquism, an extreme answer to an extreme condition. GAL however was created while Spain was already a “democratic” nation. You see the difference now?

Also, "self-determination".

UN gives a **** about your will of independence. They have never supported any kind of separatist movement from Spain. However, they have instead called for unity and cooperation among individuals, as well as in the Spanish case. If you were ready to inform yourself, you would know about the UN Resolution #2625, where they made it clear: self-determination is in any way not directed to break a sovereign, democratic, and representative state. Catalonia, Euskadi, they are both autonomous, and represented. In other words: if you want to keep defending your referendum, do it, but don't try to put the UN on your side. The international community has already shown support to Spain at many times, and you perfectly know it: No country would recognise an unilateral secession.

Tl;Dr version: Catalonia or Euskadi would become the new Nagorno-Karabakh, ignored by everyone else. The only you can do is negotiate concrete reforms, or you will not achieve anything.

Tell me why Kofi Annan was hence presiding the summit for peace talk in the Basque Country, if they dont care at all about us? What you say is so irrelevant, the UN does not have to side with someone, the UN will just approve if the Basques or the Catalans vote for independence, that's all.
Spain is just delaying the time when we will finally vote for selfdetermination, but you know I'm sure (even if you neglect it) that one day the Catalans and the Basques will have the possibility to vote for independence, like it or not. In 2014, 80% of the Catalans voted for independence (during the referendum held by the Government of Catalonia) will you keep not listening to those 80% of Catalans?

Also, I don't mind if you have a trans-state metro area. We are not France, we don't mind what you do at regional level as long as it doesn't affect national level. Wanna make a transcontinental Basque city? Go ahead.

And you talk about great Basque explorers, marines, and such. The same ones who were proud Spaniards / Frenchmen, you mean? Actually, in my profile Biography I quote a Basque man, Blas de Lezo, who leaded one of the most humiliating defeats in British war history, and resisted the World's biggest amphibious operation (until Normandy during WW2) against Cartagena de Indias. Most Basque great men were also Spanish great men. Don't forget it, when you lay claim to history for your ideology.

Pablo, this was a different time, and a different period. Nowadays Basques are different, yes the Basques used to be patriots (by patriots I mean supporting Spain or France). But this is no longer the case now, the reign of Franco greatly accelerated the will of freedom and independence. Now if you are nostalgic of the time when Spain was one, blame Franco.

Another invent of yours, is the fact that I never said Navarre hasn't always spoken Basque. What I say is that they do not feel Basque, but Navarrese. Because their historic identity is stronger than its linguistic identity, even in many Basque speakers.

The "Hablame en Cristiano" is not because of you, Mr. Ego ;) It is a common saying when you can't understand the other's statement. Or when, in this case, you can't understand the other's language. No one thinks you are barbaric, for sure. And if Roncalese Basque is extinct is not because of us, but because Navarre people doesn't speak it. Don't blame us for everything, damn. "Espanyaensroba" is nothing new.

And, as I said at the beginning, I personally don't oppose them being asked. But I won't allow their democratically-elected government to break rules. I already know a majority of both Basques and Catalans refuse independence, and that amount is even bigger if that means leaving the EU. But if they were let to break rules, THEN it would be when the Spanish state would be weak, even treating differently their citizens. Never, ever. Negociate it, or no referendum will ever be recognised.

The thing that you still do not get is that Navarrese is a synonym of Basque.

“Hablame en Cristiano” was indeed used against the Basque speakers, this is not something I invented, go to the Basque Country and ask the Elder ones if you do not believe me.
Btw, the first time I heard this sentence, it was while listening to Alaitz eta Maider a Girl Folk music band, they were quite popular some years ago, if you are interested here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdwV3BgTTHQ (song Hablame en Cristiano by Alaitz eta Maider).

I can blame the Spaniards for Roncalese, since I believe you did not even bothered to find information about it, the Roncalese language died because Roncalese kids speaking it were constantly reprimanded in School, under Franco, as I told you speaking Basque in public was like defying the state an some people were killed for it, just this greatly increased the agony of this dialect, and last but not least a great emigration of Spaniards also denatured the Roncal Valley and their culture, and little by little the last Roncalese speakers died. Navarre as a whole suffered greatly of this period, not only Roncalese but most of the central parts of Navarre where Basque was spoken were lost. You know the funny thing is that if you go to Navarre you will find more people having Basque surnames or traits compared to Biscay or Guipuzcoa.
You know the 3 provinces of Euskadi used to be part of the Kingdom of Navarre, so trying to say the Navarrese are not Basques or the Basques are not Navarrese is irrelevant:
Nafarroako Erresuma Euskal Herria da, eta Euskal Herria Nafarroa da.