Well, I guess he's still human by specie, but noone'd care if he'd die unless he interacted with humans in the past.

If someone caring about you makes you a human, then me caring about the lives of these children who are being killed must make them human. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be enough for you.

Someone who is for-life should absolutely be a vegetarian, it's just hypocritic in my opinion otherwise.

This comes back to the incorrect assumption that unborn children are somehow "Beasts", and they magically turn into humans when they are born...

Uh, yeah there's. Do on the impulse and do sex.

It's unreasonable to assume that the human that was created from that sex is the same thing as the thought that made you have sex for exactly one reason: They are independent of each other, because a thought can never continue on to become a human.

After you get someone pregnant, you can stop thinking about the baby you had in mind all you want, but that alone can never kill the baby. Furthermore, you can imagine this child to be a girl, but in reality it is a boy.

Imagine another example; If I were to give Albert Einstein blueprints for a time machine, and hey created it, would I, as a person, really be the same thing as that time machine? Of course i can take credit for it being created, but the fact is I will never be the time machine, and in fact my vision for the time machine may not even be realized, since he may adapt the blueprints to construct a circular time machine rather than a square one as I had in my blueprints.

You're straying into personal philosophy now, come back.

If we're going to be perfectly fair, you're the one who started a philosophical debate by proposing the argument that a justification for a creation and a creation can be considered the same thing.

Anyhow, during fertilisation, complications can happen, and often the egg is just killed by the immune defence systems, or what about unfertilised eggs? So what do you've to say for that?

If you are stranded on a desert island, you may starve to death, or get dehydrated. It's not the same thing as someone shooting you with a sniper rifle from a hidden cave.

In fact, people die from natural and environmental causes all the time without desert island stranding, such as old age, or tripping and breaking your neck. This is nothing to get worked up about.

You can say the same of thoughts. If a boyfriend dies, another boy can get the same idea and have sex with the girlfriend. The thought transferred

It's hard to argue that a thought transferred to from someone else to your brain is a continuity of their thought. In fact, there's not even any way to prove that the thought is composed of the same stuff in this different environment; That is, There is no way to prove that the synapse-neuron from your friends head is a clone of, or related to in any way the thought that you have.

In fact, you can't even prove that the content of the thought, the way it manifests in your brain, is even the same, since your friend may have given you bad information, either by lying to you or some other way.

Edited 4/11/2016 03:26:50

If someone caring about you makes you a human, then me caring about the lives of these children who are being killed must make them human. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be enough for you.

You care as principle, you don't have any personal ties to them (obviously). Personal ties is what I meant. Personal ties is what makes you a fellow.

This comes back to the incorrect assumption that unborn children are somehow "Beasts", and they magically turn into humans when they are born...

They have the same brainpower; no, actually many beasts have far better brainpower (magpies are known to be self-sentient, pigeons have been trained to do some algebra), and can do less than a beast can. If they're not, they might as well be beasts.

It's unreasonable to assume that the human that was created from that sex is the same thing as the thought that made you have sex for exactly one reason: They are independent of each other, because a thought can never continue on to become a human.

But this is just what I now said - the thought does go on to become human. The impulse manifests in the deed, and the deed manifests in a fertilsed egg, which is life, to you.

After you get someone pregnant, you can stop thinking about the baby you had in mind all you want, but that alone can never kill the baby.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that being depressed/not wanting a baby grows the likeliness of a miscarriage.

Imagine another example; If I were to give Albert Einstein blueprints for a time machine, and hey created it, would I, as a person, really be the same thing as that time machine? Of course i can take credit for it being created, but the fact is I will never be the time machine, and in fact my vision for the time machine may not even be realized, since he may adapt the blueprints to construct a circular time machine rather than a square one as I had in my blueprints.

I don't think this is a compatible example, or maybe I don't get what you're saying. Nothing gets modified at all.

If you are stranded on a desert island, you may starve to death, or get dehydrated. It's not the same thing as someone shooting you with a sniper rifle from a hidden cave.

Er, yeah it is. Especially if noone cares about you. You die. The end, who cares? No weight on means, just weight on ends.

In fact, people die from natural and environmental causes all the time without desert island stranding, such as old age, or tripping and breaking your neck. This is nothing to get worked up about.

Er, yeah, this is more of an argument for abortion. Folk die all the time.

It's hard to argue that a thought transferred to from someone else to your brain is a continuity of their thought. In fact, there's not even any way to prove that the thought is composed of the same stuff in this different environment; That is, There is no way to prove that the synapse-neuron from your friends head is a clone of, or related to in any way the thought that you have.

It's fundamentally the same if both have the same thought of sex with the same fellow.

You care as principle, you don't have any personal ties to them (obviously). Personal ties is what I meant. Personal ties is what makes you a fellow.

What about people hating you, because of knowing you personally? Is this counted as a personal tie in your mind?

So, if someone decides to move out into the wilderness because everyone he knows back at home hates him, does he cease to be a human, or does this hatred continue to fuel his humanity?

Not saying I agree with this line of reasoning; I still believe that it's ridiculous to claim that if nobody cares about you then you're not a human. However, it's an interesting thought experiment.

They have the same brainpower; no, actually many beasts have far better brainpower (magpies are known to be self-sentient, pigeons have been trained to do some algebra), and can do less than a beast can. If they're not, they might as well be beasts.

Yet they are obviously not, because with some care, they can grow up and become adults eventually. It is not as if there is some magical process to "Turn this beast into a human", because he is not a beast; He is a human who is very, very young, which obviously entails things like less brainpower.

But this is just what I now said - the thought does go on to become human. The impulse manifests in the deed, and the deed manifests in a fertilsed egg, which is life, to you.

The thought cannot become a human, even if it provides motivation to create a human. The Impulse is not the same thing as any action it "Manifests" in. For example, imagine that I was standing next to you right now, and I really wanted to punch you right now for saying the same ridiculous thing over and over again. I may Punch you, I may kick you, I may shake your hand and agree to disagree, but all of these actions are independent of the impulse that inspired them.

The fundamental difference between that Human, a fertlized egg, and the thought, is that they are independent things. The mother can continue to have the thought, or cease to have it, and both have no effect whatsoever on the child. This is because although they are related in that one caused the justification for the act that created the baby, they are not continuous. That is the key word: Continuous. There is no process for an impulse to continue into a child, only a process for a child to be created. It doesn't matter that the impulse led to the creation of a child, because simply being the reason a thing was created does not entail continuity with that thing.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that being depressed/not wanting a baby grows the likeliness of a miscarriage.

I was under the impression we were talking about the father now. However, the same logic applies to anyone. Nobody said anything about being depressed or not wanting a baby, your specific example was "Stop thinking about him". Say you're having a meal, or you have sex, and these thoughts are completely put out of your mind. none of this will stop the baby from existing as a human being independent of that thought.

Er, yeah it is. Especially if noone cares about you. You die. The end, who cares? No weight on means, just weight on ends.

It's a rather odd conclusion to draw that if nobody cares about you you are not a human. Can people make you not human by stopping to care about you? If someone launches a mass campaign against you to brainwash all your friends, can they take away your humanity?

Obviously not, and I don't believe that this is even what you're trying to argue; Rather, I believe that your point is that if nobody cares if you die then it doesn't matter once you do? Let me know which one is the case.

It's fundamentally the same if both have the same thought of sex with the same fellow.

But how? If it is a different synapse-neuron due to being in a different brain, the only similarity would be the actual content of the thought, of which there is no way to verify. In case you hadn't noticed, languages are a decent tool for conveying thoughts, but obviously not infallible. There may be some miscommunication, or a lie, or just a limitation of language.

For example, there's no way to communicate to me what the color red looks like to you, or what chocolate smells like in your brain.

Edited 4/11/2016 14:44:52

I think this should answer most your reply.

Human babies can become fellows, but so can thoughts; neuron-synapse codes. A thought of sex can become a baby. But they're not fellows, they're just potential fellows, as a stock of lumber can potentially become a door. You're not burning a door if you light the stock of lumber, you're burning a stock of lumber. Noone has a fellow bond with these babies, and the babies aren't really sentient even, so it doesn't matter.

Edited 4/11/2016 21:05:39

Yes, that's what you've been repeating like a broken record for a while, and most of it was addressed in my previous post. You haven't really added anything new to the discussion, or addressed any of my points...

Well you're both pretty much doing that.

"Thoughts are not folk and neither are fetuses
"No thoughts aren't folk! But fetuses are!"
[repeat]

Let's have a vote on it. The Options are to adopt a pro-life platform, or a pro-cocie platform.

I vote for pro-life.

Or we could just leave it to the states and put this behind us so we don't lose more liberal voters and conservative voters.

Alright, fair enough.

1) Pro-Life
2) Pro-choice
3) Adopt no official position

And can we vote on the darn leader?

I vote no position.

I've already voted on the leader, I'm just waiting on everyone else to do so :)

Pro-Life: 2 votes
Pro-choice: 1 votes
No Position: 1 Vote

Edited 4/12/2016 00:55:43

I vote myself, of course.

I vote Imperator, also I am pro-life.

Edited 4/12/2016 00:55:06

Edited 4/12/2016 02:45:51

I'm not standing with a self-elected leader who has a KKK profile picture and a confederate flag icon...

^ I'll join the socialists before I join those fascists.

Issues to still be decided upon:

3a. Department of education
3b. Environmental protection agency
3d. Food and drug administration
3f. Healthcare

I would like to propose that we start voting on all of these, starting with healthcare.

As Party leader, I am proposing the following party platform with compromise positions in it:

1. End Government involvement in marriage

2. Repeal Roe v. Wade and ban abortion at the federal level, but permit state legislatures to individually pass bills to legalize abortions in cases of incest, rape, or other similar incidents

3. Provide a modest tax cut for everyone by getting rid of unnecessary/liberty impeding government programs like:

3c. Federal Communications commission
3e. All welfare programs
5a. Cut Military spending by 80%
5b. National Security Agency

4. End ALL government prohibitions on drugs, as well as treat drug users rather than throwing them in jail

5. End liberty-restricting laws like:

5a. Obscenity laws restricting pornography
5b. Laws restricting religious practice such as prayer in schools
5c. Laws requiring people to wear seat belts
5d. Unreasonable copyright laws; Perhaps limit copyright protection to 8 years
5f. Laws restricting school choice

I want the income tax repealed.