I know a lot the philosophical idea, I argued about it for hours with a fervent ancap dude a few years ago. I'm not ashame to say, I lost the argument back then. Even though I believed that ancap wasn't a great idea, I couldn't beat his arguments. And well, to be frank, MGSB is really a noob when it comes to politics compared to the guy I talked to.


If you guys know nothing about that, this video is kindda good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIsFkTJNBlw, even though the guy could be a little faster to talk. There's other good videos about ancap, go and watch one before reading all.


But then, I got a few more years to learn about politics, read a lot, and here's the conclusion I got: Anarcho-Capitalism is an utopia, just like communism, it can't work because of human nature. I really wished I could talk to that guy again so I could finally use my upgraded knowlage to win the argument ^^.


So, why ancap can't work?

Because of power, you idiots! Here's the thing, there will always be evil men in the society.

1) What would stop people from commiting murder, robbing people, raping,... In an ancap society, justice is private and laws are adjustable to whatever "law firm" you subscribe to. That will create problems. What happens to someone who commits a crime and doesn't apply to a law firm? Will another law firm (of the victim) prosecute him even though he hasn't applied to it? That is against his freedom no? Then what happens if a victim has no law firm? The thug just goes away with no prosecution at all? Why would his law firm prosecute him? Also, what happens if your firm doesn't protect you? Health plans already ignore the sick, defense agencies can do it too. And there's no gvt to sue them now and force them to provide services, just like for other stuff.

End of the line, law enforcement and safety would be a mess. Rich folks would go to gated communities working pretty much like mini gvts, and the rest of the world would be screwed up.


2) Rich people can be rich, and they can work very hard to become rich. Most aren't bad either. But some bad apples may always exist. BOOM, there's no gvt people. What would prevent idk, Bill Gates, Carlos Slim and Warren Buffet to hire private armies to defend their interests? Force people to follow a new gvt and that's it?

Ancap people would say, militias will protect us! Well, here's the thing, militias can be a problem too. A militia too big can also start a new opressive gvt just because it's leaders want. Also, I refute the idea that an armed person can fight an army by itself, try stoping a tank with a handgun and let's see how well you do.


3) What do we do with current gvt stuff like roads, public buildings, streets and even more important MILITARY STUFF. We have a major problem here, bc I don't really agree with the gvt selling my street and the owner making me pay to use it. Because yea, that's how ancap would work. Also what do you do with nukes, fighter jets, tanks,... You can't sell those in sane conscience to private owners without expecting someone to threat to nuke your city in exchange of ransom. Or how do you prevent some weird dude of developping nukes in order to conquer the world?

Also, what do you do with the money gvt collects from selling all it's goods? GIVE IT TO THE PEOPLE, you'd say. NO, don't fucking do that. This ammount of money would be insane, (think about trillions) distributing this money, especially if you distribute the money equally (dirty socialists!!), would just create a massive inflation just like printing money would.


I won't go through all the moral dilemas of private school only and no welfare at all, bc we know that conservatives have no heart when it comes to these things. For defense, law enforcement and justice well, like it or not gvt is needed for these stuff. All of this isn't solved by the ancap theories/other anarchist societies.

Edited 5/27/2016 02:58:27

This is only to one fellow.

This thread is the thread of the week. Right in the ass of MSGB.
Hands down.

What would stop people from commiting murder, robbing people, raping,... In an ancap society,

Defense contractors. You know, private police.

What happens to someone who commits a crime and doesn't apply to a law firm? Will another law firm (of the victim) prosecute him even though he hasn't applied to it? That is against his freedom no?

It's not against his freedom, he's violating another's freedom with violence after all.

Why would his law firm prosecute him

Why would they lock him away when it's not certain he's guilty if they can have a cheap trial and figure out better if he is? Providing for someone is expensive.

Also, what happens if your firm doesn't protect you?

You stop hiring it and paying it money.

What would prevent idk, Bill Gates, Carlos Slim and Warren Buffet to hire private armies to defend their interests

Private armies are even more expensive than normal armies at this point, having to pay high wages and buying military equipment, not having taxes to use to pay for stuff, having to work out deals with lots of folk to use their things to get around, and then it will be losing billions of dollars in a guerrilla war against folk, something even governments can't sustain.

try stoping a tank with a handgun and let's see how well you do

Use a fifty dollar bomb, and bam, a million dollars down the drain.

We have a major problem here, bc I don't really agree with the gvt selling my street and the owner making me pay to use it

Well you already have to pay to use it, and you could just organize a voluntaryist group in your city and buy it.

Also what do you do with nukes, fighter jets, tanks,... You can't sell those in sane conscience to private owners without expecting someone to threat to nuke your city in exchange of ransom

Dismantle them and sell the scrap.

Also, what do you do with the money gvt collects from selling all it's goods

Governments don't sell goods, they make money from extortion.

I won't go through all the moral dilemas of private school only and no welfare at all, bc we know that conservatives have no heart when it comes to these things

Oh boo hoo, you can't extort 30% of a person's earnings and give them back 5%.



Now how do you stop wars, government sponsored genocides, ethnic cleansing, and the denial of rights to folk? This has been a huge problem since forever, and statists seem to just ignore it.

Defense contractors. You know, private police.

It already doesnt work out, so why should poorly equipped people do the job better?

Private armies are even more expensive than normal armies at this point, having to pay high wages and buying military equipment, not having taxes to use to pay for stuff, having to work out deals with lots of folk to use their things to get around, and then it will be losing billions of dollars in a guerrilla war against folk, something even governments can't sustain.

I am sure people like Bill Gates can afford private armies.

Dismantle them and sell the scrap.

Who would stop someone from simply taking it instead of following the orders and dismantle it??

what happens if bill gates hires the private army and instills a government via force?

how is taxation extortion if the vast majority of people agree to the taxation?

u ignore basic human nature

most ppl do not want anarcho capitalism

Edited 5/27/2016 03:26:02

what happens if bill gates hires the private army and instills a government via force?

And boom! We have a goverment again.
Anarchy-capitalism doesnt work.

ya what happens if all the rich ppl decided funding a private army was worth it and makes a new government

ppl naturally form governments u cant get rid of it lol

Edited 5/27/2016 03:27:08

I am sure people like Bill Gates can afford private armies.

Bill Gates has around 80 billion dollars. Tough luck trying to keep a occupation up with that money alone, disregarding the fact that he won't be using all of his money.

Who would stop someone from simply taking it instead of following the orders and dismantle it??

Decentralizing the government first while dismantling this stuff is the best course of action. Also good luck trying to run a jet fighter by yourself.

It already doesnt work out, so why should poorly equipped people do the job better?

They have more of an incentive to do the job more efficiently.

Anarcho-Capitalism is an utopia, just like communism, it can't work because of human nature.

Human nature can change. Customs have died out, fully, 100%. Noone cares about doing them, since they were at heart, counter-productive. Same thing here.

Humans are a tribal beast, and the world is just one colossal tribe.

Bill Gates has around 80 billion dollars. Tough luck trying to keep a occupation up with that money alone, disregarding the fact that he won't be using all of his money.

He (or anyone else who has a shithole of money) hires the private army and installs a new goverment again with him as leader. Boom! We have a goverment again.
And dont say the soldiers wouldnt support, because we all know that people would do ANYTHING for money.

You don't really explain me how Ancap would work there... Like I said, the ieda ofdefense contractors is already full of problems by itself.


If I go tomorrow and I rob a bank, I will probably go to jail right? What if I go and rob the bank in an ancap society. If I have a defense contractor, it will protect me and the banks defense contractor will protect it too. It works if I have a defense contractor, and even there maybe. If I have my personal defense contractor, I really doubt they'd deliver me to the other defense contractor, if I have no defense contractor, why does the other defense contractor have the right to condemn me to jail without me even being right to defend myself bc I'm too poor? What if I'm not even guilty in the first place??

Defense contractors work for the rich, the poor, not so much. The actual justice system is flawled yes, but the ancap justice system IS A JOKE.

Use a fifty dollar bomb, and bam, a million dollars down the drain.

That works for the tank, and even maybe there again, I'm not convinced. But will it work against a f35 raptor? These are a little harder to take down I believe.


For a private army, you underestimate the money Bill gates, Slim,... have and frankly how warfare work in the 21st century. To conquer idk, Mongolia tomorrow, I don't need hundreds of thousand soldiers, and huge army stuff. Just a few jets bomb the shit out of the country and you use it to force the gvt to follow you. Nukes are also good for that.


For the gvt goods, it was a mistake, I meant gvt property there. Still, stolen or not, someone gotta sell that for an ancap society, or maybe abandon it and the stronger can seize it? That would be a GREAT SOLUTION.


For final considerations, what is an ancap society? As long as it goes, a king is an ancap citizen. The country is it's private property that he inherited from his father, if you don't like you can leave the country and he provides safety/other services in exchange of you giving him taxes, which we can call a private contract with a private company, the King SA.

human nature will not change

we lust

we envy

we have greed

we are lazy

we are angry

we eat a lot

and we r prideful creatures

over the course of thousand yrs all of these things remained in tact

we r selfish creatures

If I go tomorrow and I rob a bank, I will probably go to jail right? What if I go and rob the bank in an ancap society. If I have a defense contractor, it will protect me and the banks defense contractor will protect it too. It works if I have a defense contractor, and even there maybe. If I have my personal defense contractor, I really doubt they'd deliver me to the other defense contractor, if I have no defense contractor, why does the other defense contractor have the right to condemn me to jail without me even being right to defend myself bc I'm too poor? What if I'm not even guilty in the first place??

You're likely to get shot by security guards. If you attack a bank, you don't get to skip out on being held accountable because you haven't signed with them.

Defense contractors work for the rich, the poor, not so much. The actual justice system is flawled yes, but the ancap justice system IS A JOKE.

I don't see why poor folk can't just band together and hire a defense contractor, nothing is preventing you from having a peaceful, voluntary and organized community with rules. Also glad to know you've been to Ancapistan, it's really a great place.

That works for the tank, and even maybe there again, I'm not convinced. But will it work against a f35 raptor? These are a little harder to take down I believe.

Yeah, but you can't occupy a place by just bombing it. You're just going to kill mostly civilians while wasting money and encouraging folk to attack you.

For a private army, you underestimate the money Bill gates, Slim,... have and frankly how warfare work in the 21st century

You really overestimate how much money these folk have to spend on occupations, and how cheap it is to occupy a place. The unsuccessful occupation of Afghanistan costed about a trillion dollars.

Still, stolen or not, someone gotta sell that for an ancap society

Sell it while decentralizing the government.

For final considerations, what is an ancap society? As long as it goes, a king is an ancap citizen. The country is it's private property that he inherited from his father, if you don't like you can leave the country and he provides safety/other services in exchange of you giving him taxes, which we can call a private contract with a private company, the King SA.

Rich folk can't really afford this, and why exactly is government so good if your greatest fear is it returning?

government manages monetary policy

now that its gone the banks can print more money!!!

all expenses saved weee

People rob banks every now and then, maybe I could be able to do it, maybe not. Still it was an example you can apply it to me murdering a random person in the street. I won't be held accountable if that person doesn't have a defender, or if I have a defensor that can protect me from prossecution, and it's wrong to punish me without me having an attorney in the scenario I have no private defender; bc I could be innocent after all, that wouldn't be better than gvt offering me a public defender.

For poor people, it works too well to be poor lol, why can't poor people just share their money so they can have food, buy houses, get clothes,... It works so well right? DUMB POOR PEOPLE! Thet could be rich if they followed your smart advices.



Also for the army thing, you're still ignoring reality of warfare in the 21st century. I don't need to occupy a country to control it. If I just bomb a country till it's only dust left of it, there will be no resistance to fight me. In a rock paper scissors scenario, angry rebels don't beat tactical nuclear strikes.

And you ignored the king scenario totally. I don't think gvt is inherently good; gvt is what people make of it, especially in a democracy. I was just exposing that your ancap utopy will be replaced by a gvt at the end no matter what; and you might even call the US gvt a good gvt, once you compare it to what could come to replace it.

Edited 5/27/2016 04:19:35

For poor people, it works too well to be poor lol, why can't poor people just share their money so they can have food, buy houses, get clothes,... It works so well right? DUMB POOR PEOPLE! Thet could be rich if they followed your smart advices.

They already have all of those things, at least in a America. And if they need collective defense, they need to collectively pay for it (voluntarily).

I won't be held accountable if that person doesn't have a defender

No defense company wants folk running around murdering their clients. Bam, you're in gaol, and get tried.

Also for the army thing, you're still ignoring reality of warfare in the 21st century. I don't need to occupy a country to control it. If I just bomb a country till it's only dust left of it, there will be no resistance to fight me. In a rock paper scissors scenario, angry rebels don't beat tactical nuclear strikes.

You have no idea how warfare works at this point do you? One, you don't have the money to sustain dropping millions of dollars on folk. You can't bomb countries to dust, it's never been done before, and you'll kill yourself if you do it with nuclear weapons. The US government lost the war on terror after it spent trillions of dollars, now how are you going to win with twenty billion?

And you ignored the king scenario totally. I don't think gvt is inherently good; gvt is what people make of it, especially in a democracy. I was just exposing that your ancap utopy will be replaced by a gvt at the end no matter what; and you might even call the US gvt a good gvt, once you compare it to what could come to replace it.

I didn't ignore it, I said it would never happen because no one can afford to buy up a whole country at this point.

They already have all of those things, at least in a America. And if they need collective defense, they need to collectively pay for it (voluntarily).

The you're saying that the gvt prevents people from being too much poor? Or is it a magical force I don't know??

No defense company wants folk running around murdering their clients. Bam, you're in gaol, and get tried.

Once I'm dead I probably can't complain too much about the services of my company. And don't you free market the shit out of me, cable services for example are terrible, and yet people use them bc there's no offer really better than the one they do use. Companies will make money, rich folks will get the good services. That's how capitalism work.


For the army, common. You don't need hundred of billion dollars to have a good army, armies are too expensive today and wasteful. Gvts spends billions because of global threats. In a world with no gvts at all, way smaller budgets would be needed to have an army good enough to conquer country-size spaces.

The new american nuclear bomb, THE MOST EXPENSIVE EVER: [i}Once full production commences in 2020, the program will cost more than $11 billion for about 400 to 480 bombs[/i]

That's roughly 28 million dollars per nuke, and it's the best nuke ever made. You can probably make nukes with less than that. The real cost to make a nuclear bomb comes from technology, which already exists in gvt hands. And it goes the same way for jets, tanks,... You can build and buy those with a few billion dollars.

Then you have a good army done, easy as that.



The King example isn't wether someone can buy a country or not, you miss the entire point again. It's just an example that says that the King and feudalist society can be seen as an ancap society as well, as long as you decide that the King is a businessman and that he provides services to whoever lives in his kingdom so long as they pay for it.

The you're saying that the gvt prevents people from being too much poor? Or is it a magical force I don't know??

I'm saying that poor folk aren't really poor.

Once I'm dead I probably can't complain too much about the services of my company.

Everyone who knows how you died would immediately drop the defense contractor.

In a world with no gvts at all, way smaller budgets would be needed to have an army good enough to conquer country-size spaces.

How exactly? You need to pay folk to fight, pay for their equipment, and pay to keep them from starving to death etc. You need to buy vehicles, supplies, electronics, buildings and pay extra personnel. Armies are not cheap.

The real cost to make a nuclear bomb comes from technology,

And you need to fund your own nuclear program, build up the technology, buy uranium, and silos/bombers.

And it goes the same way for jets, tanks,... You can build and buy those with a few billion dollars.

Buy those for a billion dollars each. Now guess what, a guerrilla can blow up your tank with a 50 dollar bomb, so you have to replace it. Congratulations , you have a unsustainable money sink that won't get you any good.

The King example isn't wether someone can buy a country or not, you miss the entire point again. It's just an example that says that the King and feudalist society can be seen as an ancap society as well, as long as you decide that the King is a businessman and that he provides services to whoever lives in his kingdom so long as they pay for it.

King Solmon: Ancap af

Of course if you stretch the definition of everything, everything can practically be anything. But historically, ancap societies were havens for folk to get away from serfdom. See Medieval Iceland or the Free Cities of Europe.

Beh I won't argue about which poor people are poor or not, that conversation would just get out of the point here.

For the defense thing, I will keep my position, people will always want to have some kind of defense agency in your dream world. Well guess what, some will be scams to get people's money, and will refuse up to the max to provide services, just like health insurence companies already do. And you don't see people stop using these services, because there's no good alternatives to these companies.


For the military thing, you don't need ground armies to win wars or even bunch of physical soldiers. Elite special armies are much more effective than huge military formations in our days... Quality equipement is the key. For the nukes, what prevents billionaires and new countries from making those aren't money or technology, but other fatass nuclear countries that don't want them to have their biggest asset.


And you overrate too much guerrillas, they can only exist when you do your job the wrong way. And the US fought the war on terror like idiots. If the US really want Irak tomorrow, they just need to nuke the hole country and it's done. It's more of a matter of morals than strict ability to do so. The same would apply to rich as fuck people in an ancap world, except there's no gvt to prevent them from raising armies.


For the king thing, many things have many names. What one call of serf, one can call of customer. It depends on whom you're talking to.

Edited 5/27/2016 05:11:35