It was the Siberian divisions brought over from Eastern Russia that tipped the balanced and allowed the USSR to counterattack

Which the Germans couldn't do anything about

if the Germans had been prepared for the winter then they would have easily beaten back the Soviet counter offensive as both sides have roughly the same number of men and tanks (after the Siberian divisions were taken into account).

One, this has the offensive taking place one month earlier, not extra preparation earlier on (which could still prove a failure, as the main problem of the Germans not being able to keep up in production and manpower will still be there), two, the winter gear the Germans had would be more suited to Central European and not Russian winter conditions, and three, the Germans still have the problem of the entire Soviet Army which isn't worse off than in otl.

Define ''American'', and yes they would be ''American''

The Japanese should have confronted the over 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft from Siberia and the Far East before they were moved to Moscow. The Germans fought exceptionally well for how under prepared they were.

On November 30th, Bock wrote in his journal that the temperature reached -49 degrees F. More than 130,000 cases of frostbite were reported among German soldiers over the winter. Only a third of German armored vehicles were operational by late October and it took several hours to heat them up enough to start. Added to this that Infantry Divisions were at 1/3 to 1/2 combat strength and it is easy to say that had the Germans been better prepared they would have at least held their ground during the winter.


One, this has the offensive taking place one month earlier, not extra preparation earlier on (which could still prove a failure, as the main problem of the Germans not being able to keep up in production and manpower will still be there), two, the winter gear the Germans had would be more suited to Central European and not Russian winter conditions, and three, the Germans still have the problem of the entire Soviet Army which isn't worse off than in otl.

If Hitler wouldn't have invaded Yugoslavia from 8-15 April 1941 then Germany would have had plenty of resources, time, manpower, and planning for the invasion of the USSR. As a matter of fact, they may have even been able to attack the USSR as much as six weeks earlier making the capture of Moscow more likely.

EDIT: This means that the Germans woudl have beaten rasputitsa and would not have suffered nearly as many supply problems.

Edited 7/11/2016 03:48:06

^

th dirty sno gremlins fot on our said thats wai we won duh

*olbigatory spicy russian memes*

The Japanese should have confronted the over 18 divisions, 1,700 tanks, and over 1,500 aircraft from Siberia and the Far East before they were moved to Moscow.

They already tried to invade Mongolia but were beaten, and the Nazi-Soviet pact had made them orient foreign policy totally to a southern expansionist route.

On November 30th, Bock wrote in his journal that the temperature reached -49 degrees F. More than 130,000 cases of frostbite were reported among German soldiers over the winter. Only a third of German armored vehicles were operational by late October and it took several hours to heat them up enough to start. Added to this that Infantry Divisions were at 1/3 to 1/2 combat strength and it is easy to say that had the Germans been better prepared they would have at least held their ground during the winter.

German equipment would still be not made to deal with conditions at the front, and there would still be losses from it.

If Hitler wouldn't have invaded Yugoslavia from 8-15 April 1941 then Germany would have had plenty of resources, time, manpower, and planning for the invasion of the USSR. As a matter of fact, they may have even been able to attack the USSR as much as six weeks earlier making the capture of Moscow more likely.

So Yugoslavia goes to being Ally-Oriented, Germany doesn't invade Greece and the Italians are stuck with a Greece that is getting British troops that are also on their way to Beograd?

And so what if it's six weeks later? It was the Russian Army that stopped the Germans, not the winter.

let blame ITALY for being a useless ally

check ur privilege

From: OxTheAutist
(from Smedley's deleted thread I found in my cache)

ooooh I'm so butthurt

and this guy's accent is so annoying; it's an English stuck up posh anglo white trash prick dirty sewer "gardy-loo" shitty disgusting snobby southern non-relating, ignorant, conservative unionist rich fucker; I hate his guts already and I wish I could take drag his family into the north sea, shove their face in our oil, and wait for them to get poisoned to the point of no return.

I like how a thread about freedom of speech got censored Kappa

It's kind of funny how the Freedom of Speech literally kills itself.

Because due to the inherent nature of Freedom of Speech, people have the freedom to speak out against it.

~ wise words from papa Genghis

and this guy's accent is so annoying; it's an English stuck up posh anglo white trash prick dirty sewer "gardy-loo" shitty disgusting snobby southern non-relating, ignorant, conservative unionist rich fucker; I hate his guts already and I wish I could take drag his family into the north sea, shove their face in our oil, and wait for them to get poisoned to the point of no return.

I love how he said this about a German

I have made my points. You cannont prove that a larger, better prepared, earlier and better equipped German army would have met the same fate. However, I can prove that it is probable that such a fictional army could have taken Moscow (taking the rest of Russia is another issue).

Im not going to waste any more time making points just so you can ignore them without facts or common sense.

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”-Thomas Paine

Edited 7/12/2016 01:35:05

One, they'd likely not be larger than otl, two, the preparations they would make for winter usage of equipment wouldn't be as useful in Russia as it would be in Central Europe, three, winter didn't stop the Germans, the Red Army did. And again, by the time the around ten armies show up, whether the Germans are in Moscow or West of it, they will begin small counterattacks that will develop into larger ones like otl.