Before this post looks like an attempt to grab attention to myself and drama; it isn't. This is about a concern I have with Clan League. This isn't in the Group A thread, because unlike knyte, I want to be as careful as possible and avoid as much drama as possible, and this isn't related to Division A in Clan League.

Context: this post -

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/160529-clan-league-season-8-group-offical-thread?Offset=195

---

And then I don't know what set you off again, but you went crazy on the Group D thread and started spamming yourself.

You don't know what set him off? Was it not obvious that Tabby is possibly one of the worst scorekeepers that can be appointed for any division; particularly one that allows him to give terrible reports, including:

- constant spam about Felidae
- very biased reports towards his own clan
- a complete lack of ability to maintain anywhere near good updates without assistance (which he was lucky to get)
- flaky attitude towards updating

You're either being pseudo-oblivious to maintain the whiteknight persona, or you actually ignore so much, that you don't know why he'd temporarily remove all the updates he made and replace them with "Join Canidae!", etc. Either way, he was making Tabby realise how ridiculous a scorekeeper he was...

Which of course didn't work, because Tabby will continue spamming about Felidae no matter what, it seems.

Point is, you do know what set him off, and instead of trying to ensure Division D had good updates by allowing knyte to be the sole updater, what do you do? You:

1. blacklist the thread
2. blacklist the good updater
3. allow the bad updater to continue being biased and spam stuff about Felidae
4. approach at least 1 unaffiliated person to do your job for you, which I sure as hell made sure to not do
5. create an entire script simply to block out knyte's posts (a.k.a. the one who was making actual updates for the division!)

~

To sum this up, you sure as hell knew why he spammed about Canidae. When the other scorekeeper did the exact same thing you didn't respond the same way. Division D was a mess, yes, but it didn't warrant you literally blacklisting the thread (which you are semi-responsible for and decided to ignore) and try to get people to do your job for you.

~

It is however my opinion. Are you telling me I am not entitled to one?

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but as the organiser of Clan League, typically the first response to somebody pointing out potential cheaters isn't "Damn, this person who caught potential cheaters is a problem. Why does he have an opinion on these cheaters?"

Of course any other person could be linked, and perhaps knyte might have taken it out of context; what he was referencing however was the apathy to do anything about it, or even respond.

~

I've never been presented with that information. [ http://bit.ly/mh-cl8-cheating ]

Wrong.

Many people have come to me with numerous questions/asks over the last month and I have always given them time.

Wrong.

It's been less than 24 hours since that allegation.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're welcome to search for someone who had a legitimate concern and I did not talk/reason with them.

4 lies all on the same thing. This is disappointing. May I search for somebody who had a legitimate concern, but was blanked and wasn't talked to or reasoned with? Oh, just some little Scot who's not worth of godly-white-knight-organiser's time.

Now, here's a little screens<span class='burning'>hot</span> I have of a Skype message (apparently you don't remove WarLight skype contacts; at least not 12 days ago).



What does this look like? Somebody privately contacting Mr. Organiser on a potential cheating team?

Now take a guess, does Mr. Organiser:

A) Respond and deal with the situation immediately
B) Bring the accusation to the Clan League Management Panel as soon as he has time
C) Procrastinate a lot, but when the information is made public by knyte contact the little Scot privately about it
D) Blank the little Scot for 12 days straight and counting!

You guessed it! The answer is D.

Now initially, I just brought it up privately. But later, when the M'Hunters shit storm happened, I contacted knyte about it, and had him bring it up for me. I saw the backlash he was getting from bringing other things up to CL management, and honestly, I didn't want to deal with that. Obviously, that's got us nowhere, but I think MotD shouldn't get away with pretending that he had only first heard about it when knyte presented the information publicly.

---

It's quite difficult to contact Deadman privately when he obviously doesn't respond to my skype messages and has me blacklisted (which I'm sure there's a reason for). I made this thread not to attack anyone (remember the "no personal attacks" from above), but as a reply post to something rife with lies, but I shouldn't be posting this on a Clan League thread.

Edited 7/23/2016 01:22:31

I hope CL 8 is not going to be the last CL...we need less drama

Also would like to advice y'all to think before- wait- better yet, try to not post anything. Maybe we can have 24 hr drama free that way

(My long post will be saved for later)

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

I'm curious what avenues we do have to bring up legitimate issues (not assuming these issues are legitimate) in a community that doesn't want drama.

The Report system? You know, due to my little attempt to figure out what triggers that Report system bug I told you about, that I've used it- in fact, all those reports are even public so you can check things if you see a bugged report: http://bit.ly/knyte-reports. You presumably also know which actions have been taken, and that one of them was for me to get warned about "abuse of the report system"- which you told me two weeks ago wasn't a rule that existed. I mean, even heading to the Report system, you'll notice that Fizzer seems to have been more concerned about not getting reports- he put the vast majority of options in the dropdown as a way to prevent people from making certain reports. And with how little impact the Report system appears to have (at least in the publicly-visible sense)... I think you could stand to make it a little more encouraging and transparently effective.

Skype? Private Messaging? I mean, even this avenue here is probably going to get him called a "keyboard warrior," have him targeted with unfair accusations by people who know their own claims to be false already, etc.

It seems to be that we're just another community used to the immense filtering power we get from the Internet and are now trying to exercise it anywhere we can. For people who use Facebook, there's always the option to defriend or unsubscribe from someone when you don't like the content they generate on your Newsfeed. Same with sites like Reddit, Google, even e-mail. We're living in an age where we can even control the ads we see. I personally think that it's weakened the public sphere as we transition from an age where we often had to not only see things we didn't like but even sometimes confront people we disagreed with or witness conversations we didn't really care for, but that's not entirely related.

But it seems to me that people are just coming here, finding content they don't like, and trying to exercise that same filtering power they've become spoiled by. Some write userscripts. Others just tell people to stop posting since that's about the strongest filter mechanism we do have.

---

Ox is more careful than I am about these things. I think if he had another avenue, he would've taken it.

And frankly, I'd like to thank Ox for at least bringing some attention to it. At the very least, he's done me a personal favor. There were some lies about me made by various groups- and, as TBest puts it, in the interest of not causing more drama and escalation- I decided I'd just take the hit and not do anything about it- at best, it' just detract from the main conversation.

But perhaps that was just another wrong decision on my part.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:07

I hope CL 8 is not going to be the last CL...we need less drama

Yup... Uncontrolled, manually done game-wide leagues are just bound to have such things. I mean, even the fully automated Ladder(s) isn't spared, with all the stalling and calling out people for it. Clan League just brings the worst out of people. Any league that grows too big will end like this. If this was a fully-automated, admin ran league and not a volunteer thing with lots of bullshit all around it, maybe it wouldn't be as bad.

Also I won't apply for scorekeeping for CL9

CL9's format will be way too different for scorekeepers as-is, and that's IF it's continued.

You don't know what set him off? Was it not obvious that Tabby is possibly one of the worst scorekeepers that can be appointed for any division; particularly one that allows him to give terrible reports, including:

- constant spam about Felidae
- very biased reports towards his own clan
- a complete lack of ability to maintain anywhere near good updates without assistance (which he was lucky to get)
- flaky attitude towards updating

You're either being pseudo-oblivious to maintain the whiteknight persona, or you actually ignore so much, that you don't know why he'd temporarily remove all the updates he made and replace them with "Join Canidae!", etc. Either way, he was making Tabby realise how ridiculous a scorekeeper he was...

Which of course didn't work, because Tabby will continue spamming about Felidae no matter what, it seems.

Point is, you do know what set him off, and instead of trying to ensure Division D had good updates by allowing knyte to be the sole updater, what do you do? You:

1. blacklist the thread
2. blacklist the good updater
3. allow the bad updater to continue being biased and spam stuff about Felidae
4. approach at least 1 unaffiliated person to do your job for you, which I sure as hell made sure to not do
5. create an entire script simply to block out knyte's posts (a.k.a. the one who was making actual updates for the division!)

Updates can be made by literally anyone on that thread. The "updater" only has the privilege of making changes in the google doc. He does a good job at that and I have no problems with him. I don't even know why you're giving me abuse over it, since I don't have the ability to give access to people myself :/

Creation of that script had nothing to do with knyte. I've created a similar script a few months back which blocks threads and this was just the extension of that. You can choose to believe what you like.

I do not believe I have any responsibility to track all division score updates. It's too much information and the amount of spam turns me off.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but as the organiser of Clan League, typically the first response to somebody pointing out potential cheaters isn't "Damn, this person who caught potential cheaters is a problem. Why does he have an opinion on these cheaters?"

Of course any other person could be linked, and perhaps knyte might have taken it out of context; what he was referencing however was the apathy to do anything about it, or even respond.

Like I've already said, we'll look into it after we resolve another on-going issue. I do not need to respond immediately to every issue brought up on the forums. I have a life and this is not my full time job.

~

I've never been presented with that information. [ http://bit.ly/mh-cl8-cheating ]


Wrong.

Many people have come to me with numerous questions/asks over the last month and I have always given them time.


Wrong.

It's been less than 24 hours since that allegation.


Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're welcome to search for someone who had a legitimate concern and I did not talk/reason with them.

4 lies all on the same thing. This is disappointing. May I search for somebody who had a legitimate concern, but was blanked and wasn't talked to or reasoned with? Oh, just some little Scot who's not worth of godly-white-knight-organiser's time.

Now, here's a little screens<span class='burning'>hot</span> I have of a Skype message (apparently you don't remove WarLight skype contacts; at least not 12 days ago).

I just looked at our skype history and I'll admit I seem to have missed this post. I sincerely apologize for it. But in my defense, I get a lot of IMs every day and it is quite normal for me to overlook one off posts. However, if this gives you the impression that I'm all for turning a blind eye to cheaters, you don't really know me. You could have just pinged again once more you know? Or made a forum post. However, for you to insinuate that I'm a liar is unfair. I have spent a lot of time answering individual questions. Benjamin, GE, Platinum, Styxie, Tackytical, KKND or the numerous group leaders who I've chased down to get line-ups filled will attest to that.

Now initially, I just brought it up privately. But later, when the M'Hunters shit storm happened, I contacted knyte about it, and had him bring it up for me. I saw the backlash he was getting from bringing other things up to CL management, and honestly, I didn't want to deal with that. Obviously, that's got us nowhere, but I think MotD shouldn't get away with pretending that he had only first heard about it when knyte presented the information publicly.

I did hear about it for the first time yesterday. I'm not pretending here. If you have a genuine concern, please feel free to bring it up on the forums. Any allegation brought up obviously has to be investigated. However, without proof we can't really do much about it either.

It's quite difficult to contact Deadman privately when he obviously doesn't respond to my skype messages and has me blacklisted (which I'm sure there's a reason for). I made this thread not to attack anyone (remember the "no personal attacks" from above), but as a reply post to something rife with lies, but I shouldn't be posting this on a Clan League thread.

Then contact Beren or ChrisCMU or Phaeril or Pushover. Although it is best if you contact multiple people in the hopes that someone responds to it quickly. If you reach out to only one person and that person doesn't see it, the issue doesn't surface. However, based on the past week, I'd just like to ask everyone to communicate solely via the forums. Make whatever you allegations you like via the forum and someone will address it. If not me, the other folks on the panel will see it and react accordingly. This is not a one-man shop. There are other panelists who help make decisions.


p.s - I'm away this weekend and cannot respond to any issues.

If you don't like the style of a scorekeeper - offer yourself as scorekeeper and do it better. I am grateful that some people invest all that work to keep things up to date, make fancy graphs and discuss outcomes. And I absolutely understand that there may be differences in "quality", however you might wanna define "quality".

And as for your problems with the organization of clan league: No one is forced to join. You don't have to put up with all that shit you complain about if you don't want to. People volunteer to organize this event for us. They might make crappy decisions, they might not organize a perfect event. But no one is forced to participate.

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

. But in my defense, I get a lot of IMs every day and it is quite normal for me to overlook one off posts. However, if this gives you the impression that I'm all for turning a blind eye to cheaters, you don't really know me.

I agree on that. It's really silly to think that MotD just doesn't care. He clearly cares or he wouldn't have made most of the few successful CLOTs this site has. Hell, he cares so much he coded in freaking JavaScript for us. You can't not respect that.


However, there's another side to the issue. I think that MotD- having a real job and all- is too busy for the current structure to work and that this (along with other structural/systematic issues) hamper Clan League. I disagree with Zeph that Clan League just can't scale, but I think it's become evident that it can't continue and scale with its present structure. And I don't mean just shifting to a ladder.

If you don't like the style of a scorekeeper - offer yourself as scorekeeper and do it better.

I'd like to note that there's some greater context of miscommunication here. In the Clan League 8 Leaders chat, I was the first to volunteer to scorekeep for Division D. I was set as scorekeeper for a period of time. I believe that, if Google keeps extensive edit logs for Sheets, MotD can find the precise moments where I was added and removed and the precise people who did it (and I've already asked him to do so, just for closure and curiosity, since that last PM thread). Regardless, all I knew at that point was that:

- for about 2 weeks, the sheet listed me as a scorekeeper

- for another week after that, it was blank there; I'd been removed by someone

- MotD then asked someone else to scorekeep

One thing I think we're missing in this conversation is an understanding of other people's perspectives. From my end, at that time, it looked like I'd been removed deliberately. Ox had earlier (jokingly?) said I'd be too biased to scorekeep, so I thought a decision had been made there. I initially only volunteered just so someone would be scorekeeping... but by the time I'd been removed, I'd already gone through the effort of making that silly Fancy Graphs sheet just because I believed that my division deserved quality.

So from my end, it looked like a slight. Like "we're going to remove you without even talking to you." It looked like I'd been replaced by a clearly biased scorekeeper because I was apparently too biased. It looked like MotD didn't care about it all and just "da S P R E A D S H E E T," as I put it. And clearly, as MotD later told me, that was the wrong assumption to make.

After the issue with Tabby was resolved, I did continue with updates on that sheet. When Div A seemed to have lost its thread updater and MotD had to fill in on top of already running Clan League, I volunteered to handle that too (and not because I thought I'd do a better job, although I tried to do one).

You can clearly see multiple levels of misunderstanding here. And it sure didn't help that MotD blacklisted me and- according to multiple people who were still able to contact him- got "SUPER PISSED" over it. At least looking at things in light of what information I have, you can see that, well, I didn't have a whole lot of information I should've had (that seems to be a general theme in this community lol, not just with me) and that the information I did have strongly implied something that wasn't the case. I think it's also evident that more sharing of information, more dialogue could not only have easily happened here but would've also avoided any personal issues from escalating.

But I ultimately didn't appreciate the response from MotD (which I still consider a very personal attack due to its implication that I had a habit of "putting people down"), his lack of concern about Tabby apparently thinking it's okay to turn every thread into a discussion about Felidae, etc. And frankly I still take issue with that. I think that's part of the structural problems in Clan League today, and I think the prevalent attitude of "they're already doing us enough favors by just running it" hampers meaningful improvement. We have every right to bring up issues where we see them; it doesn't do any disrespect to the people running CL to say: a) this exists, b) this is a problem, and c) this needs to be fixed.

No one is forced to join.

I wholly agree. I think we have a choice and actually I think that choice matters a lot. That's why I'm:

a) Repurposing parts of IPL (still set to be released on Sunday, finally!) to generate a competing league that I think better meets the needs of the community and has fewer systematic issues. We need to have more of a choice than just "be in CL" and "not be in CL"- and I'm working toward making that possible on my end (don't give me any credit until it's *done*, though :P)

b) Relaying information that I think clan leaders and members absolutely need to make an informed decisions, regardless of the options they have.

It's all about that choice. And in the near term, it's also about MotD's choice- with M'Hunters seemingly getting away with something AWF were told is entirely against the rules, with Clan League, with everything. And I also think it's important for him to have the information he needs to make an informed decision there.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:16

DICK. SIZE. COMPARISON. CONTESTS. WITH SEPH.

(best roast of da century lulz)

I don't have to justify why I blacklist people Semicedevine. I have a low tolerance for trolls. I log on to Warlight to play the game. When people act like petty children, they usually end up on my blacklist. Maybe some of them don't deserve to be there, but I like to err on the side of caution to have an enjoyable experience on Warlight. It has nothing to do with contests. What you hear on stream is just me joking around with friends. Most people I blacklist on a stream are immediately taken off my bl once the stream is done.

Kroete - I assume you've not bothered to read the Division D thread?
If it wasn't for Knytes updates all we would know would be about Felidae Felidae and Felidae. Oh, and how TJC is doing.

Motd - I can fully understand you're busy and it's understandable that you can't yourself follow everything thats going on in CL...
but...
Having seen the proof about Emu Pub and LTEmperor
and having seen Tabbys posts (which i assume you've taken the time to do since the problem is now high profile). Plus his admission in this very thread that he only wished to be scorekeeper because " To me being a scorekeeper helps me understand what's going on in the entire division which can help my clan"

I do trust that none of those 3 will take any part at all in CL9 if there is to be one?

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

act like petty children

Not to stoke the fires here, but given the filtering/isolating effect of blacklisting a lot of people (some of them, you admit, in error)... I don't think that's the right attitude to have. :P Frankly, my attitude's the exact opposite (not to say it's better) and I think it's petty and childlike to cut off people and to push myself further into a filter bubble. I can attest that engaging with people I don't like or once considered childish has been beneficial enough to outweigh getting PM's from anonym- and I encourage you to give it a try.

Obviously, my blacklist policy doesn't matter here. I don't have a userscript to hide those people's posts, don't really get mail from people I blacklisted, and don't run Clan League. But given what Semice, Ox, and others have pointed out, that your blacklisting/blocking/removal of other people has either made it harder for them to communicate or discouraged them because they thought you wouldn't look at what they had to say and just get madder... you might wanna reconsider it a bit.

I mean, at the very least, in some people's eyes, you're that guy who gets easily pissed off by things when that's probably not who you are. But that perception does seem to create issues. Maybe those issues are big enough to just be a little bit more careful about seeing so many others as "petty children"? I understand that it can be painful, annoying, and a waste of time to see certain things, but the set of choices you've got here isn't perfect. Gotta decide which side you wanna err on, and where the costs outweigh the benefits.


Or in other terms- in your job IRL, I wager you've had to interact with at least one person you didn't like. Because you had to. Because they had information that was important for you. Here, it's not quite as serious as whatever it is you do IRL... but you still play an important role, a role that requires a flow of information from other people. Seems to me that discouraging or preventing certain people from communicating with you only hampers your ability to run Clan League.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:27

I get where you are coming from. But I get too much hate mail. Not to mention the forums are spammed too much. If I hadn't used that script, I doubt I would even visit the forums(which is what most of the old timers do today)

For what it's worth, I've disabled the user script ever since I've been made a mod on the Strat forum, since I need to be able to see irrelevant posts so I can remove them.

Motd - I can fully understand you're busy and it's understandable that you can't yourself follow everything thats going on in CL...
but...
Having seen the proof about Emu Pub and LTEmperor
and having seen Tabbys posts (which i assume you've taken the time to do since the problem is now high profile). Plus his admission in this very thread that he only wished to be scorekeeper because " To me being a scorekeeper helps me understand what's going on in the entire division which can help my clan"

I do trust that none of those 3 will take any part at all in CL9 if there is to be one?

Such decisions will be made by a group of people as opposed to an individual. This ensures that personal bias/opinion do not get in the way of fairness. However, I don't think it is right to ban someone from the competition based on forum antics. Banning should be reserved for extreme cases like cheating only.

And there obviously will be a CL9. In my opinion, this is the most competitive arena on Warlight. It would be a shame if it ceased to exist.

You guys have too much time on your hands, get a life.

#motd4prez

This is pathetic , This thread is pathetic and all the drama and people who encouraged this are pathetic.

#motd4prez

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

Like I said, there are costs to my approach. But I encourage you to look at the benefits too. Being open to communication (even when it got painstaking to randomly check game chats) helped a lot with IPL. Maybe it could help Clan League too. I mean, you've also blacklisted people for one-time actions- I don't think I have sent you hate mail (if I have, let me know!) and the only three incidents of forum spam I recall having been involved with were:

a) 3-4 days on NIGHT, because I thought that racism was too tolerated on the forums and was wondering whether something taken to an extreme would get caught (it did; I was wrong)

b) about 3 pages of spam on Division C (that I think I've been warned for). Like NIGHT, it was based on the idea that one way to stop something (like the race between Division C and Division D to have the most posts in their thread, which had already led to substantial off-topic discussion) was to take it up a notch and reveal how stupid it is. Again, I admit I was in the wrong here.

c) Division D, where I came to believe that you (and others) valued low-quality content over updates and decided to join in by removing all my updates (temporarily) and replacing them with low-quality content... because, hey, if it wasn't valued, it wouldn't be missed.


I think one criticism I have to level here is that, in your eyes, these 3 deviations (actually, just one of them) from standard behavior were enough to outweigh things like IPL and turn me into a "petty child" whose posts you wanted to never see again. It seems like it's more than just hate mail and consummate spammers, really even people who make a small set of mistakes.

Look at Ben, for example- he hasn't sent you hate mail either. I haven't seen him spam the forum, even, and yet:

Hopefully not, I am going to spread it around (I've already showed JSA and GrEx), and hope it gets to Clan League council because if I mail MotD he will be SUPER pissed and not even look at it, and he removed me from his skype contacts.

Anyways I have to go now, it will be going around warlight that the M'Hunters clan is cheating in Clan League.

A lot of other people are also just not communicating with you, either, because- like I said earlier- your attitude of declaring people "petty children" over one-time things... well, I think it's isolating yourself too much.

You can still blacklist the people who send you hate mail or people you don't like to play with. But you've frankly gone overboard and burned bridges that you absolutely need to maintain if you want Clan League 9 to be more than just the empty repository on GitHub it is right now.

It would be a shame if it ceased to exist.

Not if it were replaced by something better. :P I estimate I've got 10 weeks or so to beat you there.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:34

Who Motd blacklists and who he doesn't blacklist is nobody else's business but his own and he shouldn't have to justify his reasons to anyone. As he's stated there's numerous people that can be contacted to discuss anything clan league related.

This all seems too much of a coincidence to have a couple of people kick up so much drama about clan league 8 around the time that you guys are starting another league. I really do wonder if this was all created just to make trouble in order to get people to join your league instead.

Seriously just give the guy a bloody break, everyone who knows Motd, know him to be a kind, fair, honest person who is absolutely dead against cheating. Just take a long hard look at yourselves..and think does he or anyone else who puts a ton of effort in for the warlight community, really deserve all this crap?!?

Motd4prezz

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

This all seems too much of a coincidence to have a couple of people kick up so much drama about clan league 8 around the time that you guys are starting another league.

Just to clarify things, I'm working on another league as a result of this. It's not a coincidence, but you've got the causal chain backwards.

Again, we're not going to get anywhere if we just make things personal and pretend that one side wants to just say the other side is a bunch of bad people. Literally the first thing I said in one of my posts was that MotD is a great guy and does a lot for the community.

Don't put words in other people's mouths. Instead try to actually consider what they've got to say instead of projecting your intent onto them. This is exactly why all serious discussion in this community degrades to wasteful, idiotic personal attacks. Speaking of "petty children"...

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:44

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

Good luck on that, Tabby. :)

I'll welcome competition.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:14:49

It's a dog eat cat world.

#motd4prez

It's a cat eat dog world?

#motd4prez