^

Some people don't mind losing a lot to good players.

But many people just want some fun games, or want to play people around their own level. OR they just don't know of this external CLOT, or their interest drifted onto something else. I myself cannot seriously focus on more than a few games at a time. If I am "worrying" about practice games for Clan League, for instance, I will know I will do a terrible job on most other games I attempt. I'm sure there are many others the same way.

Honestly, this particular ladder never gets mentioned in Hydra Clan chat, but neither are most other warlight leagues and events, etc.... (Its RL, random stuff, or Clan League)

So, a significant portion of the middling-weaker players have a limited interest for warlight, so to speak.

Don't know if it is possible to get Fizzer to add this to his ladder page :P

But seriously, I don't think very many people get exposure to this section, anyways.

I see no reason to mention this ladder in the Hydra Clan Server. Mostly there is no advantage to me as a clan leader to promote a public ladder. My job is to run my clan. If you want to play a public ladder, its your prerogative to do so.

yeah better to promote a clan internal ladder here on the mdl thread

We as players or leaders should be promoting community events in our clans imo.. isn't that what being part of the community is all about??! Motd has stated he is trying to prevent the mdl from dying out and is trying to attract more people and more skill diversity, so it IS in the community's best interest to keep it going surely?! Therefore we all have a responsibility to promote it!

:P In all fairness, just ran a search and it does seem like we talk about MDL in the Hydra server at least once a day. I'd also rather not have my little pet project put up as some sort of alternative to MDL.

But just since I disagree with GrEx's logic (since when is it not in the interest of a strat clan to participate in the larger strategic community?), dw fam I gotchu covered.



Edited 4/11/2017 20:17:15

Concerning the promotion of MDL...Like many times I said, this ladder is made for top guys/elites/very good players/good players/very decent, depending on your definition of each of theses terms. It is not made in my opinion for the more average strategic player so it makes it difficult for us as leaders/players to promote such a tough ladder to some of our guys we know that don't have right now the skills to enjoy this ladder.

The more average strategic player in my opinion will not see the similarities between a lot of the templates on this ladder and not everyone has the will and the competitive nature to support losing a lot of games all the time and learning from all those games lost on a lot of different templates. 1v1 ladder or such ladders are way less interesting for good players but can be quite attractive to new/average strategic players because they can fully concentrate on learning the basics of strategical gaming on 1 template, without never thinking about particularities of different templates. It is easy to see similarities between different templates when you achieve a relatively high level of gameplay, but it is much more difficult when you are kind of new to high strategical gaming.

For those reasons, it is hard I think to please everyone with a same ladder because if there are too many templates/settings, it will appeal more to the good players and less to the more average players and if it is like 1v1 ladder, the good players will sooner or later be sick of playing always the same template. The kits MotD propose could maybe be a solution to this problem if the concept is alaborated well and take in consideration the different level of skills of players.

Maybe, for example, everyone could start with a same kit of let's say idk 10-15 templates. Once you have finished 20 games to be ranked, maybe 5 more would be added only because of the fact that you are ranked. Maybe some tougher to understand templates could be added as you reach a certain rating with 20 or + games over. Like if you have played 20 or more games and have 1500 rating, 5 more templates added and if you reach 1600, 5 more added. I don't know if that could be a solution or if it is even possible to do but maybe it could help make the ladder less intimidating for newer/average strategic players.

Edited 4/12/2017 03:04:34

@Ben, this is exactly the reason why Motd is thinking about introducing the template packs. Having a base pack of maybe 10 templates that have simple settings and then optional bonus template packs with more diverse settings, should attract more average/lower skilled players which is what the MDL needs. Having more average/lower skilled players on the MDL will in turn ensure that they have more games to play with people nearer their own skill level and they are more likely to stay, which will in turn attract more players. It's a circle and we have to get it started by promoting it.

Edited 4/11/2017 19:19:16

@MoD where was an internal ladder promoted or even mentioned here? If so, I would like to apologize for the digression. Otherwise, it seems like your bias against me is clouding your judgement.

@GE, I think Mod (correct me if I'm wrong MOD) was referring to Ben's post on the previous page:

I also think that Knyte's project he is working on right now, making an easier way for anyone to run their own league with a CLOT of some sort, might also satisfy more the members of decent strategic clans that aren't elite and might pull them off this ladder.

Edited 4/11/2017 19:29:24

@Styxie I brought that up not really for promoting, but more to also give more reasons to adapt this MDL because there will be some competition to this ladder probably if Knyte's CLOT project happens.

Edited 4/11/2017 19:35:11

I know ben, I know you love the MDL and want it to continue :)

Styxy and Mod. We have promoted every new ladder since the start of our clan to our players. What GrEx tries to say is that we don't push our players to say. We let them know it exist but do not repeat it every month.

Also: we are not trying to promote our own ladder in this chat nor to "steal" players to let them play on our ladder. We will have an internal ladder (so clan only). Knyte is building a framework to make it easier to host a ladder.

@Styxie damn love is a strong word! :P. I cannot even say I love you Styxie :D. (I can only say I like MDL or you ;)).

I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

The way it was said was making it easy to jump to conclusions...

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/255217-elitist-call-action

You two didn't pay your taxes yet. You can do it at the elitist of your choice.

As it has been said, level is high and happens to be quite a barrier for newcomers of average level. To me it seems like MDL gathers mostly players who are or could be ranked top 50 in 1v1 ladder. Thus as other players, since I'm not at that level, MDL seems like a future series a losses to me, just like when I tried the real time Ladder.

That's why rather than, or on top of, offering limited number of templates (via packs), I have suggested to add divisions with promotion/relegation. Pack of templates could be assigned to different divisions : bottom one has only a few and easiest template ; next division has same + few others ; and so on, until the top who may have all (no veto, as the point of the ladder would be to be the best WL player on overall settings and maps). The goal would be to offer division of players of equivalent level.

I second the idea to ask Fizzer to put that on WL pages though for a better promotion but on condition that format may appeal to the mass and not the elite only.

Edited 4/11/2017 23:03:07

How about having unlimited vetoes? More vetoes used would grant less points per game.

@Ekstone

Can be constantly updated ranking lists for every templates for example! :O
So perhaps will be a good feeling for somebody who is, for example 15th in the main Rankings, but first in one of the 51 template rankings, and this can be a cause that not quit the ladder and continued to play. I don't know.
But again, MotD's possibilies is infinite because he owned the database and "only" need write some queries :P

Nice idea. I will consider it.

@Njord

To ask a totally unrelated question. does the win rate per template graph shows all games played or only the non expired ones?

It shows all games played.

@Dogberry

Think about it from a psychological perspective. If someone enters a ladder competition at a baseline of 0 and their rating goes up from that point to 1200, it is generally viewed in a positive light. If their rating starts at 1500 and eventually drops to 1200, they will view their performance far more negatively, even if they had the same number of wins and losses in both scenarios. I believe the entry rating of 1500 discourages many players, and yes, this includes myself.

Fair point. The current system works really well to accurately represent a player's level in my opinion. But I will see what I can do to introduce some inflation in the ratings over time.

@Aura,

My criticism to packs is I find it harder to see how "fair" the ratings are. For example, say Player A is in 1st place, with a rating of 1800. This player only plays on the base packs, and does not bother to even play on the others. now player B is 1780. Player B plays on every single pack. Is player A really considered the "best player"? I am not so sure.

"Bonus points" from enrolling to a template pack can provide incentive. There will be a point where it is impossible to climb higher unless you sign up for new packs. I haven't thought through the implementation details yet, but I think this can work. Wouldn't you agree?

@ps/Turtle

i dont really like the packs idea, think it would just fragment the player base further.

Why would it fragment the player base? You may not play as often on the some templates, but every player can still play against any opponent since matchmaking happens before template selection.

@Mike,

That's why rather than, or on top of, offering limited number of templates (via packs), I have suggested to add divisions with promotion/relegation. Pack of templates could be assigned to different divisions : bottom one has only a few and easiest template ; next division has same + few others ; and so on, until the top who may have all (no veto, as the point of the ladder would be to be the best WL player on overall settings and maps). The goal would be to offer division of players of equivalent level.

The current matchmaking system already creates such "divisions" by matching players close to each other. In fact, it is even more dynamic that what you are suggesting as it adapts after the result of every game. With regards to pack of templates assigned to each division, I'd argue that my original proposal gives players more control on the templates they wish to play on (which is the goal).

How about having unlimited vetoes? More vetoes used would grant less points per game.

At the top end of the ladder you gain 3-4 points per game and lose 28!( 1850 rating vs 1550 rating). If you impose point penalties based on number of vetoes, you will end up with 0 points on a win which is not ideal. I think it is a bit too extreme. The template pack idea is similar, but at the same time it requires you to play on a minimum number of templates.

Edited 4/12/2017 02:25:38

MoD, when I look at your player page Ladder statistics, I see that you was first on 4 ladders, but not a single word about MDL ladder records. This could be good promotion. I would also like to have my record on MDL mentioned on my page, even though I have no idea how I got that high