Wait a sec, can you post a list of the actual winners? It appears your screen shots accurately show the winners, not the list someone pulled from the score sheet.

Please confirm posting the template list here, thanks.

Edited 1/25/2019 16:53:23

3v3 Europe, Biomes
2v2 Final Earth, Guiroma, Cookies
1v1 Biomes, Elitist Africa, ME WR, British Raj, Guiroma, Hannibal

The list with DRoR and China are CL9 templates, not CL11.

That is what I thought, thanks!

I used this excel sheet for resolving the votes. : https://rightlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/joeys_stv.zip
I picked the system because that was used in the most recent CL's.

The stream is live as I am writing this, but I will address the questions here later and do a write-up today/tonight.

Firstly, I want to explain why I posted the result so sudden and poorly formatted yesterday. I was working on putting stuff on the sheet, and then a few anonymous user showed up. I found it possible that at least one user had seen the votes, so I decided to make it public instead of possibly giving someone more time with the votes.

Secondly, STV has been used for the last few CL's. I know that previous organization spent some time putting that into focus, so I hoped that players where more used to STV. (I think it's fair to say that was a mixed bag). If you search about STV, then the first advantage is that it's considered to be a very fair system for this kind of voting. However, it's disadvantage is that it's far from intuitive and not something you can just calculate by looking at it.

Third, I want to thank you all for sticking to the format I asked for. It saved me a lot of time so at least my experience with that was very good, so the confusion you may have had there was at least not wasted. There are ways to improve the voters experience here thru it should not be hard to do so.

Also, to finish I do wonder if you feel that voting is worth it? Or if you think it's possible that we could have just a template panel picking the templates. [Say each clan in A/B can (if desired) put someone on the panel?] It would represent all clans, and probably be easier/less confusing AND save time since there is no voting period.

PS. The excel sheet i linked above is very cool. If you want to see how this vote was done, just looking in there and pasting in the votes could be helpful.

EDIT: Also, the current Cookies game link goes to the old MH map that has a missing connection. The map creator has fixed this (a long time ago), and the template nominator has stated that it was an accident that the old map was used. We will be using the updated map (the only change is the fix of the missing connection) for CL.

Edited 1/26/2019 05:52:00

Thanks, TBest, for your work organizing everything so far.

I think that the voting is an important component of the set-up. Because each clan has different strengths and weaknesses on the templates offered, they can vote accordingly and have a say in the process - but (other than what voting system to use, ha) no one really argues the results of the votes. I haven't looked at the votes closely, but I would assume most clans get some of the templates they voted for and not others, and since it's the result of 14 clans blind voting, there's no real argument to be made against the results.

Although setting up a template panel of 7-14 players still gives everyone a voice, I would think that would be way too many cooks in the kitchen. I honestly don't think that would be easier - people will argue over what to use, and then how do you resolve the disputes... take a vote? Haha.

One stated goal of the template panel for basically every CL I've participated in is to try and avoid using all of the same templates from the previous season, and try to avoid using the same map over and over in 1v1's, 2v2's and 3v3's. As someone who was on the panel this season, our ability to achieve those goals were limited by the templates that were nominated. We talked about leaving out Africa (since this will be it's 3rd use in a row) and the potential for overlap with the Biomes and Guiroma maps (or Volcano Island, which we left out of 2v2's), but we also did not have such an overabundance of templates we liked to choose from that we just left it to the voters to let it happen or not happen. So, I wonder if there is a compromise solution - keep the voting system, but the template panel offers fewer templates to vote on? Maybe three 3v3's, five 2v2's and nine 1v1's? That way the panel might be able to better achieve its goals but everyone still gets to vote. I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.

Edited 1/26/2019 07:26:38

I don't see a group of 7 or 14 people agreeing on anything. Just look how slow the Ethics panel is with just 5 people. And the audit panel half retired and noone cares because replacing Ko is work. Never put so many people in charge.

STV actually wasn't used last season. It was used only once, in CL9. And now.

We could consider changing the voting system since STV really limits the templates panel. Currently you need just one #1 vote in 1v1 to get in. Suppose that Bork was an option to be voted on this season. It would be possible for just 1 clan to force a MA+army cap template onto others. If we had a system where Bork needed a lot more votes, maybe the panel would give it a chance instead of a boring Yin'ang or repeating Africa for the 3rd time? And let the people decide if they want it? Maybe.

STV does have advantages though, mainly that it redistributes surplus votes. So you don't get situations like last season when everyone voted Africa and then everyone cried that wasted their vote because they voted Africa. You also don't need to game the system like "EU will make it for sure, but I hate Biomes a lot, so I'll vote India RoR Europe Biomes even though Europe is clearly the best".


Another thing: I heard opinions that the templates should be known earlier than 1-2 weeks before start of CL. Like, at the start of CL11 we should start figuring out CL12 templates. That also would allow the template panel to choose more unique templates since clans would have lots of time to prepare. I agree with it.

Anyone salty about cookies?

Also, to finish I do wonder if you feel that voting is worth it? Or if you think it's possible that we could have just a template panel picking the templates. [Say each clan in A/B can (if desired) put someone on the panel?] It would represent all clans, and probably be easier/less confusing AND save time since there is no voting period.

Yes please, remove the voting process!
And there's really no need for a large panel, just choose the templates yourself or select one or two players to do it for you. That way, it'll be easier to achieve quality and variety of templates.

And for all those worried that no vote will make things unfair for some clans, just give all clans some time to train on the templates chosen. If you announce the templates three weeks before the rosters are due/one month before games start, then everyone will be able to study the templates, and no one will have anything to complain about.

All this STV voting was implemented because there were some players arguing against the previous system. Now a fair, but not transparent system is implemented and again there are players that are against it.

Its nothing against all those opinions. But it is as it is: YOU CAN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR EVERYONE!

Keep it simple so YOU can organize it best.

If there is at the end still someone complaining he is still free to not join Clan League.

^That's my opinion. Definitely not the most supported. But actually you have to do it like this if you as organizer don't want to get burned out

Edited 1/26/2019 11:27:22

Voting is better.

It means a betterchance to give unfair advantage.

Vicersa i would have some fixed templates like 3vs3 eu so that a clan willing to compete CL would know 3, 6 templates are surely played

Sooo... the templates which are in the "Scores" tab have completely changed from yesterday. Are these the final, correct templates to assign lineups to? Right now, I am finding it incredibly difficult to try & follow what the heck is going on, and which information is accurate. I would wish for a single place where accurate information is posted by those running CL, with no additional questions, feedbacks or distractions from anyone else. I do not know how this can be implemented, but trying to sort through all of this is cumbersome.

3v3 Europe, Biomes
2v2 Final Earth, Guiroma, Cookies
1v1 Biomes, Elitist Africa, ME WR, British Raj, Guiroma, Hannibal


Those are the templates

Why cookies? I mean i have never saw it being popular

3v3 Europe, Biomes
2v2 Final Earth, Guiroma, Cookies
1v1 Biomes, Elitist Africa, ME WR, British Raj, Guiroma, Hannibal


Those are the templates

Please give us official template links (no game links)

Sooo... the templates which are in the "Scores" tab have completely changed from yesterday. Are these the final, correct templates to assign lineups to? Right now, I am finding it incredibly difficult to try & follow what the heck is going on, and which information is accurate. I would wish for a single place where accurate information is posted by those running CL, with no additional questions, feedbacks or distractions from anyone else. I do not know how this can be implemented, but trying to sort through all of this is cumbersome.

This is a good point and another thing that I also think needs to be improved that I am not sure how to improve. There are 20+ sheets on the google doc (8 are hidden atm) and that is after I deleted a few unused sheets. This is way to many to keep track of, and in addition there are forum posts etc. When it comes to the score tab, I didn't even realize players looked there for templates (same goes for template tab as well). The first place I placed stuff was in the Votes tabs (thru both the mentioned placed has been updated atm). In short, if there is an error in the doc, it could go unnoticed for a while (something not linking for example).

This is also the intended purpose of the announcement thread (in fact, that was my suggestion when it was implemented) and while that helps if doesn't solve the problem. (97 posts there atm, most of the posts are relevant as well).

I have frequently update the OP post in that thread, however it is (and likely always will) lag a bit behind the information posted elsewhere.

In fact, I haven't updated the groups tab with templates names yet either. Anyway, this was just as an aside that I do agree there is information overload. However, at least most of it is important so it's not easy to fix.

Ideally, the sheet would have a hidden "input" tab, where I could place information once and the entire sheet would reflect that info. However, that is not the case (yet at least).

Please give us official template links (no game links)

On WZ template links are unstable. That is, if you can update a template and suddenly the template link to cookies gives you a game on Bubble Wrap. The only way of safely storing settings is by using a game link, since games are final.

Edited 1/26/2019 21:15:27

But t I can not create games from a very old game where the attached template link is exceeded. See the 1v1 ME link, it leads to 1v1 MME

And since you plan different players to create tournaments with the templates you need to have these templates anyways. So why not share it officially?!

Edited 1/27/2019 02:21:02

I think voting is good. I am sorry for going off on SVT. I honestly was a little tuned out to CL admin stuff the past couple seasons (I got burnt out on CL admin which is why I stepped down). I did not even realize it was used last season :)

I still don't like it (for the HTH reasons I mentioned above), but I respect the decision and I am ready to kick some CL butt.

Good luck to all!

Edited 1/27/2019 16:39:35

Keep it as it is unless you want to reduce the workload that would be the condition I would personally support scrapping the system. Some clans are stronger at other templates than other clans so the best way to have templates is by having a voting system involving all the clans in A/B.

In a scenario that it is scrapped for that reason, I would want a panel of 2/3 that aren't involved in Clan League to decide the templates but this feels arbitrary as you could have templates that neither clan really want.

I prefer the conciliation method of the vote than the arbitrary method of having templates without the input of the clans involved. This is the way it should be preferred.

I mean, the voting workload is not too bad, however I am not happy with how much time it ends up taking. Compere the following (best case scenarios?).

Signups for CL 1 week.
Determine Divisions. (1 day?)
Voting (1 week).
(Lineups 1 week?).

This assumes that template nominations and rosters are planned well to not take extra time, but still gives ~ 3 weeks.

With no voting, several steps are not needed. Templates could be determined well in advance as well (during prev. CL even).

Templates made public.
Signup for CL (by providing a roster and a lineup (10 days?)*

*Q's might have to give lineups for both Q and B, in case of dropouts.

In the present scenario, we use extra time for voting (which means templates are not know well ahead of time and (new) clans get confused etc. While I like the concept of voting, it's slow so worth asking if that is really worth it. Having had many strategic competitions (WGL, MDL, Past CL, Ladders, etc etc. ) finding good templates is not hard (except 3v3?), it's making them diverse. A task perhaps better suited for a panel.

And since you plan different players to create tournaments with the templates you need to have these templates anyways. So why not share it officially?!

True, the tournament creators need to make the templates. They don't really need to keep them on had thru. If someone wants to make templates links, then sure. However, I will only use/refer to game links even if I say template link someplace.

Edited 1/27/2019 20:21:55