Morally to me neither. I think it's contradictory to the substitution limit through, so i guess either it does count against the sub limit and then it would be the 4th slot or subs doesn't count before the tournament started so everyone could make as much changes prior to the tournament starts, although that would make a deadline to submit a lineup useless if clans could just switch out players as much as they want.

So alltogether i think if it counts against the sub limit it only makes sense that it counts as an extra slot. In the end that's a clan mistake than to field players that need to be switched out again. It happened to some clans, including Outlaws. That's misorganisation from the clans site and i do think these clans should be somehow punished for that.

In this situation i would just reverse the subs, restart the tournament (since it should have started normally in about 13-14 hours) and put in another player from MH.

Or we indeed doesn't count any sub until a tournament starts, although that would set a bad precedent for the competition in my opinion, due to the problem i stated earlier. Nobody could care about the original deadline and want try to get a look on others lineups first.

Edited 2/13/2019 08:29:16

Well, we used two substitutions out of 6 (?) possible, so you can't change players as much as you want after submitting a lineup and before the tournament start, right?

In terms of misorganisation, Rogue disappeared somehow without saying a word. I think he isn't a guy who is doing that, especially because he was our primary contact, but that's another topic.

Edited 2/13/2019 08:49:25

That's what i meant. It doesn't make sense to count it as a used sub but not as a used slot for the player. So either don't count it as a sub, which would set a bad precedent or you count it as a new slot as well, which again would put u over the 3 slot limit.

I checked the rules now.
Under substitution it's stated, that both players will use up a slot playing this tournament. In the lineup section it's stated that all clans needs to submit their lineups to fill all slots. The last statement of the lineup section states, that Qualifier Clans are allowed to make subs before the Stage 2 without counting against the slot limit. That means Qualifier Clans aren't allowed to sub in players for free before Stage 1. It only makes sense that the same applies to all clans at the start of the season. Bringing me back to the first sentence. A substitution uses up a slot for each player.

I think I am not the only one to hope that Edge will eventually come with something like this :

"Nah kidding. I was just playing the caricature of myself to entertain the community. I wouldn't like to create a drama out of nothing by sticking to the letter of the law.

WZ in general and CL specifically should remain a space of fun and strategy; games and events should be won on the board, so we should try to mitigate as much as possible the impact of boots and real life incidents. When the legitimacy of a rule is debatable, I have no problem with amending it, especially if sticking to it would lead to a bigger workload for the organizers (recreation of a tournament, etc.)

Plus I don't want to put the organizer in an uncomfortable conflict of interests with regards to his clan. Let's try to keep the process fluid and fight only the really worthy battles.."
-

If we're going to nitpick over this rule, then yes: AI has been put over his sub limit. However, he's played 0 games in his slot and won't ever play a game in that slot. Even though that still technically counts as a sub, I'm hoping we can just agree that while it's technically against the rules, absolutely no harm has been done. If you're going to go and make me recreate the tournament, mass mail everyone again etc., you can. But please don't.

Edited 2/13/2019 10:22:04

After lineups are made public, they are to be counted towards the slots.
Citing relevant conversation from a different division,

https://www.warzone.com/Forum/331408-clan-league-11-qualifier-2-official-thread

(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! :
Just for clarification: when I substitute a player A with player B before the tournament begins. Do both players use up 1 slot then? I ask because player A actually never is 'playing this tournament'.

TBest:
Yes, they both use slots at that point. The one exception being, if such a sub is done before lineups are made public. (An exception I have, since the time between templates and lineups is on the shorter end)

Because we don't have CLOT which checks the SLOT limit during the substitutions, I had explicitly mentioned few words on slot limit for substitution:

-Every clan can replace 6 slots (out of 18) over the course of the season. Remember that for Q2 each player is allowed a maximum of 2 slots. Make sure to not go over this slot and pick the player from the roster while making a substitution.

I am not sure if there are different rules for different divisions, but my understanding is that substitution(MH EU 3v3) can't be made and instead of restarting the tournament, it is easier to make manual games in a given schedule.

@ malakkan

I'm sorry but i don't bend myself because people don't like my opinion. I explained my critic in a hopefully respected and kind way and i certainly don't want to attack people. If a recreation makes any problems i'm gladly helping where i can.

We don't need to make it bigger as it is. Especially not with an argument of a fun competition when the past indicates that a lot more people have taken this competition way to serious and already destroyed that picture.

I hope we can leave it with that.

So,
Since the tournament has already started we need to make a decision before anyone starts putting effort in their games. Want me to recreate the whole thing or not?

So,
Since the tournament has already started we need to make a decision before anyone starts putting effort in their games. Want me to recreate the whole thing or not?

Imo no. When in doubt, do what's more fun for people.

Unless that question is specifically aimed at Edge.

In which case, why should Edge be the one to decide?

Check post of TBest No 36 in https://www.warzone.com/Forum/327517-clan-league-11-announcements?Offset=90

Quote: Until the tournament start/lineup are public, subs/changes are free.

Personal point of view:
Technically, it's against the rules of CL11.
In CL10, Stats could not do such a sub (before lineups were public even and due to site lag!) and did lose a slot over this with Beren and MotD less than helpful.
However, cheating is partially caused by this kind of technicalities that ruin the spirit of the competition. MHunters tried to sub and were open about it, they didn't secretly take over the account.

Audit panel point of view:
Isn't this what Ethics committee is for?
I would call for the Ethics committee to have a quick chat about this and send us their final verdict, and then we can all move on hopefully.
Given that the sub is done (by the organizers - Farah/TBest) and that the tournament has started, it seems to me that the mistake "is done". Reversing would punish the wrong people (Farah and everyone who joined) and we are not talking yet about possible picks being put in that can give valuable intel about opposing team's playstyle.
Following previous cases, if Ethics feels this is a violation, they can thus give AI a warning, a slot reduction for next season or a minor point loss.

Unless that question is specifically aimed at Edge.

In which case, why should Edge be the one to decide?

If a rule was technically broken, everyone has a legitimate claim to say the tournament should be recreated. So it's not directly aimed at Edge, but to anyone who has a problem with this. I would argue to leave the tournament as it is, but if someone really has a problem with it, i can't do much else than recreate it.

If the Ethics panel decides to recreate the tournament, (or even better, give AI a warn or slot reduction), that's a sign we need to get rid of this panel asap.

It's obviously not fun for MH.
It's not fun for everyone else in A to rejoin the tournament and redo their picks.
It's not fun for organizers to have more work.

Yeah the rule was technically broken, please be more careful next time. For now, let's roll with it and have fun.

It's absolutely ridiculous that people are hating on Edge for pointing out that a rule was broken. Are we going to have rules, or are we not going to have rules? "Even though that still technically counts as a sub, I'm hoping we can just agree that while it's technically against the rules, absolutely no harm has been done." - give me a break with that. Let's just make a simple fix (see #1). "Hey officer, I was driving drunk, but I didn't hit anyone so no harm was done, right?"

1) This seems pretty simple. It's against the rules. Seems to be an honest mistake. Put AI back in his slots and find someone else. Call it a day. Why is THAT solution a big deal?

2) Technically the tournament should not have started yet, so the fact that it has is not M'H problem. So don't complain about having to remake it. Or just make new M'H games and let the rest run. Just decide fast before teams put time into picks and the games all start for real.

3) Whoever is overseeing the subs should be checking this sort of thing.

Whoever decided a tournament with no games played in counts a slot is a dumbo.

No, they're not. They were trying to get rid of an exploit where you can check other people's lineups before the tournament started and then adjust your own lineup to the others with unlimited free subs.

slot != sub

Whoever decided a tournament with no games played in counts a slot is a dumbo.

MotD last season? -_-
And yes, that was a slot with no games played before lineups were even visible.

Edited 2/13/2019 11:30:43

Just to clarify i'm not misunderstanding:

We're talking about the slot-limit regarding a player, not about the sub-limit a clan has?

Oh, you're right. I got confused with subs and slots.