Sorry, I read through the thread, but must have missed that. :)

Vanilla SR-Templates (6):
New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
Battle Islands V
Phobia SR
Volcano Island
Strategic Greece
Guiroma 16% SR

Slightly Weird, almost Vanilla (2):
Biomes of America
French Brawl

WR-Templates (2):
Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
British Raj

Weird (2):
Blitzkrieg Borg
Macedonia No Split


Just saying we got a ton of Vanilla-Templates. At least from my viewpoint. And yes, that was around the Berlin Open ;)

@huddyj
np ;)

@Timi
Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)
But jokes aside, I wrote that I am open for a template pool voting by the participants.

Btw, my categories are:

• Vanilla SR templates
  (New 1v1 ladder settings and the too similar "clones")
  
  • New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
    
  • Battle Islands V
    
  • Phobia SR
    
  • Volcano Island
• Not vanilla SR templates
  (this is a category between the vanilla SR and the soft weird templates)
  
  • Strategic Greece
    
  • Guiroma 16% SR
• WR templates
  (WR templates with standard settings (I don't divide this into vanilla and not vanilla like SR, because there isn't too much WR templates (compared to SR))
  
  • Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
    
  • British Raj
• Soft weird templates (can be SR or WR)
  (where the gameplay is different a bit than the standards)
  
  • Biomes of America
    
  • French Brawl
• Very weird templates (can be SR or WR)
  (where the gameplay is very different, these are usually the controversial templates (hated by many but loved too), the templates with more special settings)
  
  • Blitzkrieg Borg
    
  • Macedonia No Split

And about the too many vanilla SR templates.
There are players who like the standard SR templates and hate the luck settings and don't like the weird things neither. There are many players like that. And there are players who don't like the vanilla SR templates (they refer to bean counting, but actually they are lazy to count only :P), but like WR templates and weird settings.
And much easier to play on Vanilla SR templates than on the other ones, I mean the players who don't like the beancounting, still very good on those templates, but vice versa is not always true.

And we have 6 SR and 6 not SR templates now, so the SR lovers can choose an SR template as own template and the other camp can choose a WR or weird template as own one, and the deciding template never will be Vanilla SR template for sure (the anti-Vanilla fans can ban them). Similar for bo5 settings too.

So it seems so many Vanilla SR templates, but because the bans, in the end will be balanced for both SR fans and SR haters imo.

But again, I am open for using Version 2, i.e. the participants will vote to the template pool before the event start.
Btw, I would listen the opinions of the other participants too.

I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.
Don't make Things more complicated than they could be.

Assuming two equally skilled players have exactly the opposite preference in terms of templates (T1-12):

Player A bans T12
Player B bans T1
Player A picks T2 (game 1)
Player B picks T11 (game 2)
Player A bans T10
Player B bans T3, T4
Player A bans T9, T8
Player B bans T5
Player A picks T6 (game 3)

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.

Yeah, AI is right. I was one of those who argued for less vanilla than we ended up with, but others wanted more vanilla than we ended up with. The outcome was a fair reflection of the discussion, and it should be a settled issue for the year. When I made my above comment, I hadn't noticed that they were the Grand Slam/Masters templates.

Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)

You could always make it compulsory... ;)

I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.

We speak about two things here!
One is the major template voting for the Tour. That's finished with a good turnout (13 of 15 voted for Grand Slams and 12 of 15 voted for Masters!), so the result is quite representative imo.
The other is the template pool building for the first two rounds in the Tour Finals.
I just propose the 12 elected major templates for this template pool too (I wrote above why), but we don't have to use it!
If the majority of the participants want to vote on it (Version 2 in my Magazine post linked above), we can do it!
So far Timi wants a new vote for it, AI and kicorse don't want. 3 of 16 so far, I am waiting for the rest opinions too.

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.

Very good analysis, thx!
But :)
I think, the winning chance is not correct.
I mean for example the Vanilla SR haters can play on those templates at a very high level, just hate to count :P
Ok, their advantage will be less than on a template he loves, but still not so low.
And a WR hater can play enough high level on the WR templates too (or he can have extreme luck at least ;) ), just hates it.
So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance (winning chance affected too, but not so much as it seems at first sight imo)

But this is a brainstorming topic!
So please give us more possibilities, so write here your proposals about the template pool buildings and pick/bans order, etc.
We can only speak about my proposals, but that is not effective enough imo.
I mean a brainstorming is not this, but ton of ideas, an idea tsunami ;)
And not only from the participants but from anyone ;)

So come on guys, it's talk time! ;)

You mentioned Versions 1 and 3 as the template building phases for the event, however I would recommend a modified form of Version 2 for all rounds:

Given you're using 13 maps in the semifinals and finals, I'll go with that instead of 12:

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.
Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of:

3 vanilla SR templates
4 non-vanilla SR templates (all the other categories have a Grand Slam template)
3 WR templates
3 soft weird templates
3 hard weird templates

for balance.

Then you can apply the pick/ban phase below to alleviate the advantage of being player A (however small).

EDIT: So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

Edited 5/10/2019 11:21:26

Best of 3:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
1 template is left over

Best of 5:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 7:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 11:
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 1
1 template is left over

First of all, thank you s1gmoyd for your Hunglish to English translation of my first post! I will replace my text on your mailed one.

And thank you a lot for your proposals!

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

This is a good point!
Well, we have the tools, I mean we can use more ban steps before the picks (as in your proposals) so players can ban more templates they hate, so they can reduce the suffering level.
But it also means that the chance they can play on their most favorite templates is reducing too!
So this is the question, what do the participants want?

• Playing with less misery on common templates but likely missing their favorite ones.
  
• Or playing on their favorite templates but likely suffer from their opponents' ones.

The other important thing is the balance, we should find the most balanced version of the ban/pick steps (the perfect balance is impossible imo, but try to find the most balanced one)

But first of all, we should determine the template pool, because the ban/pick phase is based on that!

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.

I like that we both think in very similar way :)
There is an upgraded Version 3 in my mind, where there would be 3 parts of the template pool, one common parts (which decided before the event, and can be the template pool we will use for round1 and 2) and two parts from the two players in the given duel. This give more tactics possibility in the ban/pick phase (not simple ban opponent's elected templates and pick mines) and even in the template building phase. But I am still thinking about the details so I can post this only later.

But this is only for the Semifinals and Finals, with the last four players, because it is more difficult than the Version 1 or Version 2 (and easier guiding 4 players than 16).
I would like this mainly for testing purposes, how this type of template pool building phase can work in practice. I think it can, and gives additional strategic dimensions to the duels. Or not :) Please wait for I find out all the details of my idea and post here, then you can destroy it and we can use Version 1 or 2 template pool building phase for all rounds ;)

Until we can speak about the round1-2 template building method.

Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of

The "limit of" means maximum template numbers from the given template categories in the final template pool?
And how the participants would choose the 9 templates? With a voting? Which type of voting?
Details please ;)
And the details will be difficult, this is why I chose the very simple Version 1 ;)
But I am absolutely open for Version 2 (what you proposed and Timi wants) if we find out the details.

And again, this is a brainstorming topic, I am waiting for all your ideas regarding template pool building and ban/pick phases.
These two things are the key elements of this event, if we can find simple enough, well balanced, well working phases it will be cool.
Please help us to find!

Edited 5/11/2019 05:34:18

The "limit of" means maximum template numbers from the given template categories in the final template pool?

Yes, I think? Of the Masters and 500 Series templates, there is a hard limit of X (the number above) maps that can be voted in, ignoring the Grand Slam templates.

And how the participants would choose the 9 templates?

By ordering their top 9 templates then submitting it, then assigning X number of points depending on the placement.

Still need details ;)

Where would this template category limits be applied?
At the voting level or at the vote resolving level?
I mean

• voting level: the 16 participants choose and order their 9 templates, but they can choose maximum 3 (4 for non-vanilla) templates from the template categories?
  
  • if this, what if we will have more than 9 templates in the end? I mean, can be more 9th templates with same aggregated points. Who and how will decide which one will be the 9th template?
    
  • if this, how can you ensure those template categories limits in the final pool? I mean, all (or the decisive majority) players can choose only vanilla templates as their TOP3 for example, in that case will be (much) more vanilla templates in the final 9 templates than 3. Or this will not be a problem, because the (decisive) majority decided this?
• vote resolving level: they can choose (and order) any template numbers from the template categories, but after we choose the top (with most points) templates from the different template categories in order that we can ensure the limits.
  
  • if this, what if we will have more templates with same aggregated points? (same issue than above)
    
  • your limit numbers 3+4+3+3+3-4=12 but we need only 9 templates. So we have a problem here too.
• a mixed mode: we use both method above, but still similar questions (same aggregated points, your limits are not paired with the 9 templates we need in the end)

And many other questions, such as the voting will be by WZ mails? What will be the deadlines? etc.
But these ones are easier than the listed ones above.

So this is why I skipped Version 2 and chose the very simple Version 1.
But still open for the Version 2, we just have to find the answers ;)

your limit numbers 3+4+3+3+3-4=12 but we need only 9 templates. So we have a problem here too.

In the meantime, I found a solution for this.
We start with the template with most point and if this is a vanilla template, the counter of vanilla will be 1, then we check the second most point template, and if this is a vanilla template too, then the vanilla counter will be 2, if the 3rd most point template is a vanilla too, then the vanilla counter will reach the maximum, and if the 4th most point template a vanilla too, we will simple skip it, I see.
But still is a problem the templates with same aggregated points ;)

But what if everybody only choose vanilla templates? :)
So we need the mixed mode (where the limits for the votes too)

Edited 5/13/2019 04:38:04

Ah and one more question, who will decide about the template categories?
I can make the initial categories, but after that the template panel should validate it.
So this is a prereq.

But still is a problem the templates with same aggregated points ;)

In this case we can check the first seeded player's vote if he votes on these templates, and if yes, choose the highest ordered one from his votes. If the first seeded player didn't vote any of these templates, the we check the second seeded player's votes and so on.

My brain can storm alone ;)
(would be better if more brains, but... :P )

Edited 5/13/2019 04:48:01

The sum of the limits was deliberately over the maximum number of templates so the players can have more weird or vanilla maps if they want it that way.

A player can choose as many templates from a category as they like.

Like you worked out, if there are more than the limit of a type of template in the top 9 templates, then you keep looking through the 20 templates on order to find valid templates.

EDIT: Template panel seems like a fair go to.

Edited 5/15/2019 16:06:01

The sum of the limits was deliberately over the maximum number of templates so the players can have more weird or vanilla maps if they want it that way.

Ah, I see, and this is a good idea! (still a limit, but players have the ability to shape the proportions)

A player can choose as many templates from a category as they like.

But this can be a problem.
I mean, what if all the participants will choose only SR templates, and none of WR or any weird templates?
In this case we will have 4 (Grand Slams) + 3 (max. vanilla SR number) + 4 (max. non-vanilla SR number) = 11 templates and 2 will miss!
(I know this is very extreme but still can happen so we need a rule for it)

In the other hand, if the limits will be obligatory for the player's votes too, we will have more representative points for every template categories. (for example if everybody choose only SR templates, but one player choose WR and weird templates, then the WR and weird template rankings will be based on only one player vote)

So I propose, that we use the template category limits already in the voting phase not only in the vote resolving phase.

And, I propose that we don't use the four Grand Slam templates without voting neither (this is an other situation than the Tour template voting was), and add the fixed 250 Series templates (11) to the voting pool too (for example Georgia Army Cap is a very popular template but only 250 Series because the Tour proportions!).

So the participants would choose 20 templates from the Grand Slams (4), Masters (8), 500 Series (12) and fixed 250 Series (11), so total of 35 templates, with a limit of:

• 4 Vanilla SR templates
  
• 4 Non-vanilla SR templates
  
• 4 WR templates
  
• 4 Soft weird templates
  
• 4 Hard weird templates

I proposed 20, because in this way we will have 4 votes for every categories from every players.
Then we will choose the best 13 templates with most aggregated points, but if we will have more than 4 templates from a category in the TOP13, then skip the 5th in that category and check the 14th most point templates, and so on (the idea what I wrote earlier)

What do you think?

And we should find a good voting resolve system.
Which points for the 20 chosen and ranked templates by the players?
Simple: 20 points for the first ranked templates, 19 for the second, and so on?
Or more weighted way? (higher ranked templates would gain extra points than the lower, similar than in Formula One (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_World_Championship_scoring_system))

I appreciate the amount of work you put into this, but it really gets too complicated. I suggest you just use the 12 Grand Slam + Masters templates and the pick/ban system by players involved. If 12 templates is not enough, add the 500 series so you have 24.

Honestly, I am curious about how this voting would work in practice and its output too.
And I love to thinking on and create new systems :)

But I understand, maybe this version is too difficult
(btw, it seems difficult, but only the elaboration is complicated, for the participants won't be as complicated as it seems now)
So I will create a quick participant voting about what version should we use.

Anyway, we have the name of the last participant, congrats to Muli!
(I mean only last qualified, because Muli is in 12th place now and if he beat Suschel in the tournament Finals, he will be 9th!)

So we have the final participant list for the Tour Finals:

• kicorse
  
• Rento
  
• MoD
  
• Styxie
  
• malakkan
  
• FSG
  
• Timi
  
• JV
  
• Quicksilver
  
• Buns
  
• rakleader
  
• Muli
  
• alexclusive
  
• AI
  
• Octane
  
• Beren

Although we are still waiting for the last 2019 game (the tourney Finals between Muli and Suschel) for the final seeding.

So what's next:
I will write here the template pool building versions in detail.
Then I will create a quick mail voting thread for the 16 participants to decide what version will be used.

Edited 5/26/2019 03:36:15

So we have two choices regarding to the template pool building:

• VERSION 1: There won't be any template pool building phase, we simple use the 12 elected major Tour templates as a pool:
  
  • New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17908424
    
  • Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=9521858
    
  • Biomes of America
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=16462151
    
  • Blitzkrieg Borg
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17280043
    
  • Battle Islands V
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=15755712
    
  • Volcano Island
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=14441247
    
  • Phobia SR
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17462877
    
  • Strategic Greece
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=18081267
    
  • Guiroma 16% SR
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17961400
    
  • British Raj
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=18199633
    
  • French Brawl
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=16675349
    
  • Macedonia No Split
    https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=15664844
• VERSION 2: There will be a template pool building phase before the event, where the 16 participants will elect (with a voting) the templates to the pool in the following way:
  
  • 35 templates were classified into 4 categories, which you can find in my next post.
    
  • The 16 participants will choose and vote on their TOP20 templates from those 35 in the following way:
    
    • It will start as a secret ballot, so the participants will have to send their votes to s1gmoyd and me privately by WZ mails.
      But in the end all the 16 TOP20 votes will be published in a google docs, so the votes will be public.
      
    • The participants will have to choose 20 templates from the 35, but will have to choose a minimum of three from all four categories (no maximum limit)
      
    • The participants will have to rank their votes, because their
      
      • 20th votes will score 1 point,
        
      • 19th will 2 points,
        
      • 18th will 3 points,
        
      • 17th will 4 points,
        
      • 16th will 5 points,
        
      • 15th will 6 points,
        
      • 14th will 7 points,
        
      • 13th will 8 points,
        
      • 12th will 9 points,
        
      • 11th will 10 points,
        
      • 10th will 12 points,
        
      • 9th will 14 points,
        
      • 8th will 16 points,
        
      • 7th will 18 points,
        
      • 6th will 20 points,
        
      • 5th will 23 points,
        
      • 4th will 26 points,
        
      • 3th will 29 points,
        
      • 2nd will 33 points
        
      • and the first will be 40 points.
  • After every votes received, we summarize the votes and publish them in a google docs, and based on those votes and the summarized points we find the 12 templates for the template pool in the following way:
    
    • There will be minimum one template from all the 4 categories in the pool, so first we find the templates with most summarized points from all 4 categories (if more templates will be with the same summarized points then the higher seeded player's vote will decide). After it 4 of the 12 templates will be chosen.
      
    • There will be a maximum 5 templates per categories limit, so the next step that we will find the next template with most summarized points (if more templates will be with the same summarized points then the higher seeded player's vote will decide) and check the followings:
      
      • The templates already chosen in the first step?
        
        • If no, check the next thing below
          
        • If yes, skip it and proceed with the next most summarized points template.
      • The template is already the 6th in a category (so the maximum limit was reached already)?
        
        • If no, we found the next template in the pool, and check the next thing below.
          
        • If yes, skip it and proceed with the next most summarized points template.
      • We have already 12 templates?
        
        • If no, proceed with the next most summarized points template.
          
        • If yes, the template pool building phase is over

The question is whether better to use even or odd number templates in the template pool will be discussed in the next section (about the ban/pick steps).
If the odd number will be chosen then we will find 13 templates not 12, and will be China as the 13th template in Version 1.

Ok, that's all :)
I am waiting for your opinions.
If no any until Tuesday early morning CET, I will send these two versions to the 16 participants for voting.