OD

Edited 4/2/2020 18:15:07

I remember thinking this too, when I first learned about OP and OD.

To me, it would be intuitive that OD only delay's 1 order, not all. Basically, you can't play OD as anything but the 2nd to last order.


That being said, I don't mind the current implementation either. As for what plays best, I have no clue

i agree with your overall thoughts but in play I think it works fine provided they are pretty sparse
You then have to decide carefully on when to use it
And so it remains strategic and more so without them
i have a template where you start with one of each and the get something like a tenth of a card per turn
So you need to use them wisely
Is this the turn to use them on it should I wait.
How long before the next card is due

But I think importantly in terms of game design
You can try to recreate order delays by doing moves between territories
I sometimes set up a set of territories with one moveable army on each and will move those first swapping between two territories
But if you want to be more sure you can spend an age very dully doing it with more and more armies
The card gets rid of that

I remember you as a very delay heavy player, so that is probably the view that your coming from, someone who rates delays very highly.

As for OP card, this makes no sense at all. You usually dont want all of your orders to happen before the opponent. Also OP card can often be used to manipulate the move order (in some cases having first order makes you need one less delay to actually outdelay your opponent) so it is strategically very valuable. As I said earlier, you dont want all your orders to happen before the opponent, so a Prio card would often not be playable without a delay card in the same turn which seems counterproductive to me.

And for delay card, they are strong, but delays are not as strong as you think. Absence of delay cards would eliminate many strategic options. Like for example, if you know that you have a delay card and your opponent has not, you can go pretty agressive while vice versa you have to think of other ways to play that turn. You dont longer have the option of delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying, delaying and then attack on every front. Sounds also pretty boring, no?
I like to have this diversity.

Is

Edited 4/2/2020 18:15:16

Templates without OD card are usually either brawly templates or templates without cards at all, because one wants to take away the necessity to take card pieces. Sometimes it fits well, but I would argue that almost every template is more strategic with OD cards for said reasons. (from the post above)

A template like Strat MME is not brawly and lives off taking card pieces. One could also argue that the reinforcement card of 5 is OP because if the opponent has it and you don't, you will suffer quite a disadvantage.

I dont see your point with them being prediction based as well. At the same time, its not like only the opponent has the chance to play a OD card...

Edited 3/30/2020 21:34:16

Not

Edited 4/2/2020 18:15:28

OP and OD are obscure concepts. Move order as a whole is a weird concept that really makes no sense. Show me a general who gives out 50 orders, numbers them 1 to 50, and tells each not to go before their move # arrives.

It gets even worse when you consider that sometimes you have to make 20+ useless moves just to ensure you can make a "late turn move". Because you can't just wait until an appointed time, you actually need other soldiers making moves to fill the dead space between moves.

Balanced

Edited 4/2/2020 18:15:37

well if od cards are as op as you say, then they would normally be played the turn you get them and therefore be played in the same turn. That is also almost always the case

also its not that hard to play around an OD card, its as hard to play around a +5 card, (fx in your example you have some spare armies to defend that you got from somewhere ). alsoall cards are prediction heavy, since its a matter of choice to play them.

(edit)But if your down an OD card, either you lost a piece or your opponent took a turn where he played you, using an OD card.

Edited 3/30/2020 22:38:07

fully disagree, on every word.

there are things in my msg that is impossible to disagree on though

dont think so

I would think how these cards should work is something like this: Order Priority moves all your orders up one slot. Ie., you have orders normally on slot 1234, 1 order dealy card adds the 0 slot to this and all your orders are now on 0123, add a second order delay card and you are (-1)123, and so on. Of course, this may not be best. It always seemed to me like maybe the order delay card was basically just a discard action you could take at any point in your turn, which would be cool, but it apparently isn't. Anyways, not knowing much about how these work, I have put way to many into my own templates and would love to make them better in the future.

I’ve had similar thoughts before, but I would usually say a RF card has a bigger impact if one player gets it first.

Just don’t miss card pieces and all is fine

An order delay card is a beautiful thing to eventually turn a game around where your opponent would outdelay you on every turn otherwise. Of course, if you are a delay heavy player it might suck to get a delay card in and run in a few stacks for once instead of the other way around. But there is no thing like 'delay cards are too good', since both of you have the same cards. You use the card either on the turn that gives you the biggest advantage, or the turn where he might get an advantage by getting last move.

There are also quite a few strategies to counter a delay card, for example if you got multiple borders, you don't attack on every border softly, but just on one heavily or you simply defend and let his small stacks kill themselves

General remark on how similar implementation of order priority would be "all attacks first" - this is incorrect, because that's not how order delay works either: you CHOOSE which orders you want to delay and which ones you don't want to delay. Often, you want one or two attacks (or transfers to the front) to go early.

If you would implement order priority in a similar way, it means you would get to CHOOSE how many attacks you want to happen before your opponent's first move. In my opinion, that would be equally OP (pun intended) as the current implementation of order delay and actually something interesting to consider.

As for the prediction based comment. The OD card isn't really more prediction based than other cards (Only the R-card is usually less of a prediction).

Knowing when someone will play their OD card is done with the information on their position and the knowledge on what their options are. Of course, there will be cases where you won't be 100% sure they'll use it, but the same goes for pretty much any other card in the game. If you feel like you are often uncertain about your opponent's use of the OD card you might want to look into improving the above mentioned.

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I personally don't have a problem with the OD card, but if I had to make an alternative to it I'd make it so that an OD card can be set to a number of moves. When an OD card gets set to 6 moves, for example, and it gets played the game counts it as 6 moves made. This way you cant completely ignore making delays even when playing the card and your opponent could still out delay you with a lot of investment. On top of that, it still allows you to push multiple moves to the back.

Delays can really kick in when you have a high defence rate
For example I have played in games with 100% defence rate

If you don't like the card then just don't play in games with them

But personally I like them as another game element
But just like all cards not in all games