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Amash2020: 2020-05-20 08:03:22


goralgn 
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it's the year for 3rd Parties
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 16:35:47


Benjamin628 
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yea you do seem confused.

If a country can't decide who comes in its borders then it's not a real country.


Of course we can decide who comes in. Nobody is saying we can't. I'm just saying that it would be preferable to essentially have unrestricted immigration because that has been proven to be economically, socially, and politically the best path forward for freedom.
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 16:43:40


RainB00ts
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"the best path forward for freedom"

such meaningless and deceptive terminology
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 18:31:01


Pepe the Great
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Amash2020: 2020-05-20 19:54:40


goralgn 
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WTF is this
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 20:02:03


berdan131
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Amash2020: 2020-05-20 20:08:22


goralgn 
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wasn't that the entire point of america? Where Everyone is free? how can you call yourself Land Of The Free and say stuff like" If anyone can just walk across the border, sign a piece of paper and become an "American" then being an "American" means nothing and has no value." Don't You Think You Are kinda Admitting This isnt the land of the free or the american dream was a lie all along because you make it sound like it
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 21:00:12


Benjamin628 
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Time to own some racists.

Mass immigration has been a cultural and economic disaster for the American middle class. If anyone can just walk across the border, sign a piece of paper and become an "American" then being an "American" means nothing and has no value.

Like your ancestors did in Tennessee when they first settled it in the late 1700s? Or maybe you're of Irish or Eastern European descent, and stole the jobs of native Anglo-Saxons and African-Americans in the Gilded age?

Immigration is neither a cultural nor economic disaster. Mexican food is incredible. Latinas are beautiful. Immigrants do jobs that Americans don't want to do. 71% of farm workers are immigrants. Over 40% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants to the United States or their children. The Donald Trump quote from when he first launched his campaign for POTUS is just so untrue:

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists."

Are you a female?

No. GFY.

The point of America, according the founding fathers, was to provide a homeland for the settlers who built this country and "their progeny." Try reading the first immigration Act of 1790, or any Immigration law until the 1965 Hart-Celler Act.

Actually, the point of America, or at-least the Constitution, is to "establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". Google Posterity: "all future generations of people".

The Period you're referring to is not 1790-1965, it is 1920-1965, where immigration was most restricted. In that period the US GDP grew from $690 Billion to $750 Billion.

America was a real nation, not just an economic zone for the whole world to pillage. The "American dream" was a post-WW2 idea of owning your own home with a car and a white picket fence. It was never about getting invaded by millions of africans, indians, and mexicans to the point of reducing Americans to a stateless people and a minority in their own country.

Was? You do realize that even if what you believe to be true, only 3.6% of the population is undocumented. These are probably a hefty portion of the 71% of farm workers I mentioned above. Only 1 million immigrants come to America each year. Some invasion right.

Also, "Africans, Indians and Mexicans" (see I corrected it for you haha) make up less than half of our immigrant population. Please read this article before responding with some other racist garbage, you insufferable buffoon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

Edited 5/20/2020 21:01:09
Amash2020: 2020-05-20 22:08:40


berdan131
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I think both Benjamin628, Enwird Scyzzurphands and goralgn have good points.

Enwird Scyzzurphands point is that mass immigration is making natives poorer. Which is true. Demographics have an impact on wealth.

Examples: Norway --> lots of natural resources, small population. Result? Less people to share, so each one gets more, wealthy nation.
Third world countries: Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc.... Uncontrollable population growth is making everyone poorer. More people to share among.



The benefits of immigration:

1. Even though uncontrolled immigration make everybody poorer on average, the country as a whole is stronger. Bigger workforce.
2. Bringing talent, skilled workers etc... good for US. You know what's kinda funny? The best immigrants-scientists in US were..... Nazi. That's right. Nazi scientists contributed a lot to US science, and were welcomed with open hands, after the end of ww2.
3. If a country is underpopulated, then immigration is making everybody richer, by filling the gaps and making more efficient economy.



So I think the answer is somewhere between two extremes.

Exteme 1: Closed borders, zero immigration policy, all population must be born on US soil.

Extreme 2: We're all equal and love everybody, so if 200 million poor people want to come here? No problem, US government will pay for their fly ticket and welcome them with all rights and benefits. We can't deny anyone the right to be free!


Not all migrants are created equal. That's why it's bad to allow criminals, and good to import skilled workers. That's right. It's the reason foreign deficit workers are the most looked-after by US government. Because good management is based on cold calculations, and that's just the hard truth, a blackpill for some, I would say. To think otherwise, is just naive. That's just how the world works.

Edited 5/20/2020 22:55:23
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 00:06:12


Benjamin628 
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Thanks berdan for clearing some things up. However I do disagree with a few points:

Third world countries: Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc.... Uncontrollable population growth is making everyone poorer. More people to share among.

This is not true for Bangladesh anymore. They are graduating from a undeveloped nation into a developing nation. See Tanzania, Ethiopia, Nigeria, India, and a lot of the "freer" developing world. These are the countries with the (pre-COVID-19) GDP growth rates of 8%/year. This is what happens when you get "uncontrollable" population growth with a combination of "good" institutions and "free" society. They have a long way to go, but they are doing much better than Afghanistan, which you and I both know isn't a fair case example for immigration.

Also, google ECOWAS. You'll be surprised at some of the work that is going on in Western Africa.

So I think the answer is somewhere between two extremes.

Exteme 1: Closed borders, zero immigration policy, all population must be born on US soil.

Extreme 2: We're all equal and love everybody, so if 200 million poor people want to come here? No problem, US government will pay for their fly ticket and welcome them with all rights and benefits. We can't deny anyone the right to be free!


My beliefs on immigration are held by only about 70% of libertarians, including Amash, and not many others. Extreme 1 would mean our population, and especially Europe's population if they applied the same rules, would drop drastically over time. Not good.

Extreme 2 is also a cherry picked fear-mongering example. If we loosened immigration restrictions, the undocumented immigrants would be replaced with legal and documented immigrants. Not much would change in the composition of our country, we would just document peoples who were previously undocumented. Also, I believe that all welfare should be abolished (and perhaps replaced with a small UBI) so that isn't applicable to my argument.

Not all migrants are created equal. That's why it's bad to allow criminals, and good to import skilled workers.

Part of the immigration process is, and would be under any Libertarian, an international crime check. This is why cooperation is very important with other countries. I do believe though that beyond this, all immigrants are created equal. You can't judge someone based off of their current skills, because all people are born with zero "skills". Lots of people come to the United States and do something much more productive than they were doing.

Get an immigrant from Haiti who is making $4 a day and bring him to the United States where he can make $80 a day. That 4000% increase in his productivity is beneficial to literally everyone involved:
- GDP of the United States increases.
- The immigrant's economic status rises.
- The employer can get cheaper, more efficient, and higher quality labor.
- He can choose to send money back to any family in Haiti.

https://fee.org/articles/how-free-migration-could-double-the-economy/

Let the nations with the institutions to handle mass amounts of people. If you think that immigrants are a threat to your safety, consider who supplies your cheap goods and services.
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 01:06:16


berdan131
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Extreme 2 is also a cherry picked fear-mongering example

That's right. It was supposed to be. As the name implies, it's an EXTREME example. What I mean is, the opposite of fully closed borders are fully open borders. No verifications whatsoever, of any kind. And of course, this is meant to be a ridicule example. Just extreme ends of a wide spectrum.


If we loosened immigration restrictions, the undocumented immigrants would be replaced with legal and documented immigrants........ Also, I believe that all welfare should be abolished

What you're talking here, is a moderate solution, so it's a completely different topic.




If we wanna talk about the RIGHT solution, then.... Personally I believe in meritocracy. Just calculating what is "best". To decide if a country needs more open or more closed borders. Based on circumstances and "realpolitik".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 01:11:17


Pepe the Great
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Not all immigrants are equal because not all cultures are equal. What happened to the Native American way of life when too many immigrants who didn't share their values came over from Europe? Their way of life was radically changed.

GDP isn't the only way to measure how well a country is doing. I bet this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWT9zhKcuJo) helps Toronto's GDP grow... is he an overall asset to Canadian society?

Why not encourage your own country's population to breed and make life easier on larger families (like Hungary does) instead of mass migration?
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 01:37:24


Benjamin628 
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Hungary has been stagnant for 10 years and has a lot of problems.

Nice cherry-picked video from one radical Muslim. Also from Canada which is irrelevant to the topic.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

Our demographic projections estimate that Muslims will make up 2.1% of the U.S. population by the year 2050, surpassing people who identify as Jewish on the basis of religion as the second-largest faith group in the country (not including people who say they have no religion).


Keep on fear mongering!

Edited 5/21/2020 02:04:16
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 02:42:35


berdan131
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that escalated rather quickly
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 03:33:17


Pepe the Great
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@Benjamin628
Hungary has been stagnant for 10 years and has a lot of problems.


I'm not saying let's emulate Hungary in every aspect, I'm saying let's emulate them with regards to making life easier on big families.
Thanks for sending a study showing 72% of Indonesian Muslims support instituting sharia law, a supposed moderate Muslim country. I'm not fearmongering, I can read Muslim texts for myself and see what they believe, whether Western Muslims know these texts exist or agree with them is irrelevant.
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/2/190
https://sunnah.com/abudawud/43/167
https://sunnah.com/urn/1262620
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/40/8
https://sunnah.com/urn/42350
I could go on, but I'll just direct you to look up Christian Prince. Famous Muslim apologists refuse to debate him, and Indonesia's most popular news site called him the biggest threat to Islam... a guy who makes Youtube videos is the biggest threat to Islam.
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 04:35:22


Diety Emperor Cacao, God Ruler of the Universe 
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Ignoring politics, Amash sounds like a kid mad that the guy he dislikes became the popular kid in the club
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 06:23:33


goralgn 
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i do not know why you think i am a female or how it matters but i am a 18 year old man
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 11:26:52


goralgn 
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thats a bad pun my guy you could have said it's the Kebab flag
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 13:45:50


Benjamin628 
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I'm not saying let's emulate Hungary in every aspect, I'm saying let's emulate them with regards to making life easier on big families.
Thanks for sending a study showing 72% of Indonesian Muslims support instituting sharia law, a supposed moderate Muslim country. I'm not fearmongering, I can read Muslim texts for myself and see what they believe, whether Western Muslims know these texts exist or agree with them is irrelevant.


Yeah, let's reduce taxes heavily to support big families.

I don't care how many Muslims support Sharia Law, about half of American's don't support 2A. We are a diverse nation with many diverse ideas, some better than others. 1% of the population's ideas on government isn't going to fundamentally change our rights.
Amash2020: 2020-05-21 15:28:11


goralgn 
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i mean us has the lowest health expendancy
you have to do your own tax even though goverment knows how much you owe them but they dont tell you
healthcare cost thousands for no reason
The Universities literally Milk Their Students Out of cash at every chance they could
rich are less taxed than the middle class and lower class
anti vax movement was started at the us
general complacency
lack of desire to change
more extremist policies
Schooling System is broken to the point that it doesnt help you in life anymore
Guns are easily bought if you arent a criminal
School Shootings Becoming More Commoner
Fighting 2 Unwinnable wars (war against terror and war against drugs)

Yes Usa Does Have Problems that need to be solved and badly
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