I think allowing multiple teams per clan makes sense.The arguments against this possibility are mostly highly theoretical and currently not relevant in practice.

1) Clans in the same division or allied clans in division A
Since the divisions are very different in terms of skill level, a clan would have to have an enormous number of players at one level in order to have two teams competing in the same league - this is never the case. It usually makes sense to make one team stronger, and that team rises. What happens when two teams compete in Division A in allied clans is well illustrated in Lynx-101st-Outlaws. Outlaws split off in the end, because apart from personal differences, they saw themselves as a clan of their own that could prove itself in Division A - and the assumption was probably correct.

If you take into account that you can split the lower divisions as well, then something like this can only happen if the managers have grossly miscalculated beforehand.

2) Several teams per clan do not solve known problems
It's true that you can't solve certain problems with it, but you give big clans the chance to have more than one team. And this is exactly what was often demanded - not without good reason. In practice, these clans will find that managing 2 teams and the allocation of teams can bring new challenges.

3) More rules are needed
The simplest rule would be to consider the several teams each as a separate clan. Then you only need this one additional rule.

4) Balancing the divisions and size of the league
The described problems have their origin in the P/R system of the league. And while this can be considered stupid, it is exactly this circumstance that makes it so attractive: There are sometimes very strong/weak teams - which one you just don't always know beforehand. You can try to speed up your promotion by super promotion.

If you wanted to solve it completely, you would have to change the mode of the Clan League - you can want that, I don't want that. The advantages of the current system outweigh in the end .

"4) Balancing the divisions and size of the league"

Who Asked This i mean i can see The reason why people want to expand the league (because they Want to join the cl) but divisions are already well balanced 2 get promoted 3 in the middle stay at the division 2 gets relegated
this is probably the most balanced it can get so it doesnt make sense

i mean if you want to we can expand until division z but it would take 27 cl for a Division Z team to make Division A and i dont think a team can keep that momentum for that long because if we have 2 cl a year it would take 13 and a half years at minimum

Who Asked This i mean i can see The reason why people want to expand the league

No-one said this, what they're saying is they don't want to have to expand the league, which would kind of have to happen if we allowed multiple teams from the same clan.

i know no one asked for this i just wanted to say what would happen if it did (in part 2)

sorry, late to party. but there is the rule if you play for one clan, then another you cannot play for a different one for a couple seasons. so players who played for masters, then apprentice would need to sit out seasons. they can't play for masters

If a player played for Clan X in CL 9 and moved to clan Y in CL 10, then they can not represent Clan X in CL 11. This rule is meant to stop free movement of players and restrict the advantages gained via allied clans (For ex - FakeNamePlayer for Masters/Apex, Lynx/101st, Masters/Apprentice, GG/GGr etc). The only exception to this rule is if Clan X drops out of the Clan League.

You kinda butchered the rule, lol. Ignoring the exception, Masters hasn't played since CL10, so even if it wasn't there, the rule would not apply.

I would like to add something about multiple teams per clan.

I personally like the idea, but we need to be aware this rule will be very damaging for new clans which enter CL.
As many clans (like ours) will be creating 2nd team. In PRO/REL system it means we will have 5/6 Divisions I think. So if a new strong clan join CL they will have to fight through 2/3 very weak Divisions.

We can reduce this negative consequence by increasing number of teams per Division to 8. No real damage for schedule, but it will require more time for players playing in CL (1/2/3 game/games more).

I also have a few other questions:

1) About rosters. Does it mean we will need to field one roster (for VIW and VIW B) or we should do 2 separate rosters?
I think we should field one roster.

2) About lineups. How does substitutions should work? If we have a player plaing in VIW B - is it possible this player can substitute player from VIW?
I thinks such substitutions should be allowed.

3) How about rule player playing for one clan team (VIW - in CL 13) who change clan team (to VIW 2 - in CL 14) cannot go back to previous clan team (VIW - in CL 15)?
I think this rule should be suspended.

Edited 5/15/2020 07:10:16

Why the rules for that are not be set in stone, the teams would be treated as individual clans, and not as a whole unit. Allowing clans to just switch stuff around between teams with no limitations is a bad idea.

1) and 2) will be easier for a clan. But I guess it will be more difficult for these making CL.

But I think 3) rule when we allow clans field multiple teams should be suspended.
I don't like the rule, but especially when we are allowed to making multiple teams it makes sense to suspend it (at least for the same clan - for example VIW and VIW 2).

It looks to me as if we have returned to the same debate about whether CL is about players or clans. Despite what the name says, I think it is the players that make CL what it is, not the {clan tags}.
If Masters would join back in Div D next season, it would cause more unfair situations. Clans in Div D (and C the year after) would not be able to get the promotion they deserve, Master would have no fun playing there cause they have very little challenge in Div D and C.

If a clan has more players that want to join the lineup then there is space in the lineup, it is for the clan itself to solve it. Hold a internal competition to decide who of the players in the lineup should play, or use the substitutions of players to play with 2 different player groups for the same clan.
Only if it can't be managed like that because there are substantially more players than a single lineup, they should be able to make a different team (which for the purpose of CL would act as a separate clan, following the current rules).

If those B teams should join in their current Div or in Div D. Unless most clans make a B team of themselves, I don't see the need to host a CL A and a CL B, and the B teams should join the the same CL as their A teams.

3) How about rule player playing for one clan team (VIW - in CL 13) who change clan team (to VIW 2 - in CL 14) cannot go back to previous clan team (VIW - in CL 15)?

This rule should be dropped, since a player can change clans, decide he doesn't like his new clan, and go back to his old clan.

Since the divisions are very different in terms of skill level, a clan would have to have an enormous number of players at one level in order to have two teams competing in the same league - this is never the case. It usually makes sense to make one team stronger, and that team rises. What happens when two teams compete in Division A in allied clans is well illustrated in Lynx-101st-Outlaws. Outlaws split off in the end, because apart from personal differences, they saw themselves as a clan of their own that could prove itself in Division A - and the assumption was probably correct.

The issue isn't two teams from the same clan being in A together, it's them being in any division together. Team B of a clan in B can throw to team A of that clan to get them into A, or from C to B, etc. And this could happen quite quickly, since if a D team chooses to field multiple teams (say TSFH), they'd start off together right away.

It's true that you can't solve certain problems with it, but you give big clans the chance to have more than one team. And this is exactly what was often demanded - not without good reason. In practice, these clans will find that managing 2 teams and the allocation of teams can bring new challenges.

This doesn't really address the point you use it to address:
1. As you concede, it still doesn't solve many if any of the issues it's supposed to resolve.
2. I don't think there's high demand for clans having more than one team, although I suppose Cowboy's vote will demonstrate if there is.

The simplest rule would be to consider the several teams each as a separate clan. Then you only need this one additional rule.

This is inadequate, because they're not separate clans. The same way a feeder clan probably shouldn't be in a division with its sibling clan, there wouldn't be the same sense of competition between members of the same clan on different teams. There's inevitably an incentive to give your clan a win, which is done by having the teams play strategically to help one another. So, no, treating them as different clans wouldn't solve the problems, there'd have to be many more rules to prevent colluding within a clan.

The described problems have their origin in the P/R system of the league. And while this can be considered stupid, it is exactly this circumstance that makes it so attractive: There are sometimes very strong/weak teams - which one you just don't always know beforehand. You can try to speed up your promotion by super promotion.

I think this is the least of issue with the proposal, although you're right it is an issue. Coincidentally, your solution to this is more rules, which you said wouldn't be necessary...

Since my last post got down-voted when all I literally said was I agree with Beren's post 100% , I guess I will have to create another post for my opinion on this matter.


Since the divisions are very different in terms of skill level, a clan would have to have an enormous number of players at one level in order to have two teams competing in the same league - this is never the case.


Say Masters creates a team B. Team B of Masters easily wins Div. D, C, and B. They promote to A, where Masters A Team is. What would then happen? This is a very possible scenario if the possible rule changes are applied.


The issue isn't two teams from the same clan being in A together, it's them being in any division together. Team B of a clan in B can throw to team A of that clan to get them into A, or from C to B, etc. And this could happen quite quickly, since if a D team chooses to field multiple teams (say TSFH), they'd start off together right away


If TSFH does join Clan League next season and these rule changes are applied, TSFH could easily put together five or six teams, jamming Division D up with, say, six TSFH teams. What, then, would happen to the size of Division D? Would a new division need to be created? A Division E? This argument is likely to arise due to if TSFH joins Clan League. Would Division D be composed of half of TSFH teams?

My Points:

- Allowing other clans to have the "advantage" of having like 2 teams, as is so with brother/ sister clans is not needed. As Beren said, no one is stopping other clans to go out and create a sister clan. Why then is this discussion even needed?

- Having more than one team seems to create more chaos and drama in the long road. Some being:
1. It jams up divisions.
2. Checkmqte already touched on this, but having to check every game whether to see 1) accidental boot or a planned boot to give one team the advantage 2) Having to check to see if one player didn't play their best to help Team A or if they actually were trying 3) What if there was discussing in private messaging in the games about where so-and-so if deploying and moving.

- A Reserve Clan League would be nice for lower-skilled players. A few downsides to this, on the other hand, would be 1) would there be seperate score-keepers for this "extra" Clan League? 2) Would this be too big of a work-to-reward ratio, meaning would there be enough enthusiasm for the League or would it be all dull and boring? 3) Would the same rules apply for the reserve clan league as regular Clan League?

- The rule of allowing one team is fine as it is. Changing the rules will cause more drama and will not be worth it. Reserve Clan League, IMO, is the way to go with this, not having the ability to create multiple teams per clan.

- What if Masters creates two teams that are of equal strength and they both promote to Division A? Say Masters, ONE! , Lynx all field two teams, (and SNinia fields one) an A team and a B team of equal strengths? Would it then be almost impossible for a new clan with great players but only one team to come and win Division A, since it is being occupied by three clans with great players and teams? Would the new clan , Clan Z, have an unfair advantage?

- Having multiple teams per clan will lead to bigger divisions, new big clans fielding multiple teams, more divisions, and, finally, having to wait as long as 4 years to promote from the bottom to the top. By that time, probably 2/3 of the players would have gone inactive or not willing to play in Clan League.

-On the topic of hopping from Team A to Team B, being because Team A relegated from A and Team B promoted to A, this should be allowed, but only on a matter of you can not participate for Team A one season, Team B the next, and Team C the next. The standard Clan League rules should be applied to this, thinking as each Team as a separate clan. i.e. A player can participate in Team A one season and Team B the next, but is prohibited to play for Team A after playing for Team A and Team B in two consecutive seasons.

-Even without many teams for the same clan, problems are sure to arise with even Reserve Clan League! One being, can a player switch back and forth from clan to clan. - i.e. Can a player play for HAWKS during one Reserve Clan League season, play for CORP during the next, and then switch to HAWKS again to represent then during another season of RCL (Reserve Clan League)? Would the same rules apply or since it would be RCL , would the rules be different than standard Clan League rules?

Allowing a clan to field multiple teams is NOT the right way to go IMO. It will cause more drama!! :)

This being said, I think this is certainly something to think about and to consider to Pro's and Con's about.

All-in-all, I agree Clan League is changing and rules are changing. We need to decide whether to change for the good of Clan League's future or only to change because some clans have an "un-fair" advantage since they are not creating a sister clan to go side-by-side with their clan.

Truly, there is no un-fair advantage in this; just not enough motivation to go out and create another sister clan to be their "second team".

Changing the rules to allow a clan to field multiple teams will just result in more work for the Clan League administrators, who already have a big workload as it is currently.

-Viking

Edited 5/15/2020 18:51:10

there were 2 questions the panel had to answer!
1/ does master have the right to take the place of apps in cl
2/ should we give priority to clans or players

apartment, the 2nd question has been put on the side!
why not ask for the opinion of all the clans instead of imposing it
are you afraid of the result?
you say that in the past, this rule has shown that it is a good rule !! I'm sorry, but I don't agree !!
only half of the people were happy
but as you were among those who were happy, you decide it was good and does not want to give clans the opportunity to express themselves on this subject
there is no more deaf than one who does not want to hear

Zev, you are too blind to see you are in a clear minority on this matter. The issue was settled years ago when the rule was created. The Ethics panel looked into it and came to the conclusions they came to.

I put out a straw poll to see what general sentiment looked like.

https://www.warzone.com/Forum/415305-straw-poll-masterapprentice-merger

Members of Hawks, Lynx, 101st, Master, FCC, Discovery, MH, VIW, Vikinger, and WG all stated they thought the rule was fine. The ethics panel decision was written by Edge who leads Outlaws as well. If we go to Niko's thread you will see additional people in support of the rule.

There is no reason to put it to a vote, we all know what the result would be and no one is afraid of the result. Best I understand the leadership wants to limit the number of items put upto a vote, because its a pain to administer and makes the lives of the leadership miserable. Considering they do this on a volunteer basis for love of the game I'm in favor of making their lives less difficult.

Yes! Agreed with you Glass!

The rules are fine as they stand currently! As I stated in my post right above yours, changing the rules will just result in more work for the Clan League administrators, who already have a big workload.

The issue isn't two teams from the same clan being in A together, it's them being in any division together. Team B of a clan in B can throw to team A of that clan to get them into A, or from C to B, etc. And this could happen quite quickly, since if a D team chooses to field multiple teams (say TSFH), they'd start off together right away.

If the number of clans increases significantly, the lower divisions will be split anyway. Regardless of this, it is not at all said that anyone would cheat if you have two teams in one division. If necessary, let the teams play all match-ups first.

But let's look at it in a practical way: How do you hide a large-scale con? Everyone in the line-up would have to know and nobody can seriously tell me that you can hide it in the long run. At some point, something like that always comes out when the number of people involved increases. Especially since it's very motivating to lose all games and that with announcement. Who wants to play in such a team?!

And to cheat with a small number of people, you don't really need two teams. You just need one person who changes clans after the season or who likes one clan more than another.

This paranoia, that it would be completely unplayable if there are two teams in one division, is absurd. We have a big problem (= players can't play because clan is so big), which you are facing a much smaller one. The probability that the opportunity to cheat and then also someone tries to cheat successfully is not very high compared to what is already a risk anyway.

This doesn't really address the point you use it to address:
1. As you concede, it still doesn't solve many if any of the issues it's supposed to resolve.
2. I don't think there's high demand for clans having more than one team, although I suppose Cowboy's vote will demonstrate if there is.

It does not matter how big the demand is. There are clans that can make use of it and the question about it has been asked in the past. If nobody uses it, all arguments against the option would be invalid. So your point really only speaks for creating the option.

This is inadequate, because they're not separate clans. The same way a feeder clan probably shouldn't be in a division with its sibling clan, there wouldn't be the same sense of competition between members of the same clan on different teams. There's inevitably an incentive to give your clan a win, which is done by having the teams play strategically to help one another. So, no, treating them as different clans wouldn't solve the problems, there'd have to be many more rules to prevent colluding within a clan.

Sorry, but this is pure bullshit by you. We can threat these teams as seperate clans, if we like to. I do not really see a problem with having two teams in the same division as stated above chances of cheating are not really higher than usual through my eyes. For example we could value the risk of players, which already cheated higher, to cheat again. So let's ban them completly from clan league?!

I think this is the least of issue with the proposal, although you're right it is an issue. Coincidentally, your solution to this is more rules, which you said wouldn't be necessary...

Yeah and there rules are caused by having more clans playing clan league. And we already have the problem right now. We do not need to adress this, but we can.

Allowing other clans to have the "advantage" of having like 2 teams, as is so with brother/ sister clans is not needed. As Beren said, no one is stopping other clans to go out and create a sister clan. Why then is this discussion even needed?

Yeah, let's go for more bureaucracy. Lynx/101st it doesn't matter, but I still don't understand why you have to make such a drama out of it, if you just don't have to pay the coins anymore. The effort is simply higher for everyone. There are simply no new problems, because a clan can create ten new sub-clans if they want to. So why this unnecessary bureaucracy?

Edited 5/15/2020 19:16:39

Maybe that's the one downside of a big clan: having limited cl spots

I have talked with my fellow M'Hunters admins and given that players can't seem to freely switch between the A and the B team they showed no interest in forming a B team.

Maybe this discussion here is purely theoretical. Is there a clan league leader here who considers forming a B team given the fact that you can't freely move players back to the A team?

This rule changes should be an option only available for clans in the A/B Division. This would avoid main clans matching with B teams. I disagree that a large clan can enter as many teams as they want in the bottom division. That doesn't fundamentally make sense.

The "demand" for using this "rule" is mainly based on how free it is to move players from B team to A team. As Norman alludes to, not many clans will actually make a B clan. As it's a significant investment in players. If clans wanted to make a secondary team, they can simply purchase a new clan and put players in it. If you can do that, why not just legalise it? It fundamentally makes no difference. Clan leaders want flexibility.

I disagree with Krunx, I don't believe in the interests of a competitive league and to avoid conflicts of interest, should you have a feeder and a main clan in the same league. I think it's obvious reasons that I don't need to explain why that's a poor idea in the interests of a competition. The B clan should be differentiated from the A clan. Therefore, if A clan relegates to the same division as the B clan. The B clan should also relegate.

It's going to happen anyways if a clan really wants to, it should be legalised. I voted yes for the vote and hope it goes through, if not it fundamentally makes no difference.

I don't see the fundamental issue that prompted this vote being changed regardless of the outcome of vote. I wish I could get your time back and contributed to something of better value for your times.

Edited 5/15/2020 21:47:21