Y'all, stop bullying Nauz. He's not pretending he won; he just explained why he forfeit. No need to be a fizz to him when he's already resigned.

if this challenge proved anything its that us small earthers are a sensitive bunch, and demand respect!

Honestly, bashing the skill of a player based on their performance on ONE template is absurd to me.

Also, saying that one template "stresses the fundamentals" is equally absurd. A template stresses a player's skill on that template. Why else would the rankings in the seasonal ladder change drastically from season to season, template to template?

If your goal is to truly test your fundamentals, your better off doing something like the multi day ladder, which has over 50 templates for players to test their meddle against each other. In order to do well on a ladder with so many templates, you HAVE to know your fundamentals. A template specialist can't do squat on the ladder, e.g. nauzhror, our MME specialist, has struggled mightily when playing it:

http://md-ladder.cloudapp.net/player?playerId=6516195490
http://md-ladder.cloudapp.net/player?playerId=56114135921

All I see in this thread here are two players with big egos trying to bash each other's ability - and some players are taking it as an opportunity to bash nauz because he resigned on ONE template. shamu might be a great apple farmer, nauz a great orange farmer, but I don't see evidence that points to either one being the better fruit farmer overall. And sure, maybe shamu should try his hand at oranges, but ultimately the best way to gauge fruit farming skill would be to have them both try to cultivate cherries, mangos, grapefruit, peaches, etc. as well.

if this challenge proved anything its that us small earthers are a sensitive bunch, and demand respect!

I can respect you as an apple farmer, sure, but if you are looking to be respected as a fruit farmer in general, then I can't, since you seem fairly untested in that respect.

Edited 6/18/2021 20:53:09

Welcome back from retirement, Mr. Gourdian.

It really doesn't matter what you call it...fundamentals or not fundamentals, it doesn't matter.

Point is, you need certain skills (e.g, efficient troop management, good anticipation skills, and being acutely aware of relative advantages, for example) to do well in Small Earth. Unless you think those skills don't help in other templates, then you aren't actually disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing for some semantic reason because it offends you on some weird level.

Point is, Nauz was really bad at the more "microscopic" elements of the game. Not even just in the sense that he didn't know Small Earth specifics (e.g, what territories are higher value in Small Earth, and what objectives are more important on Small Earth?"), but also in a generalist perspective too (e.g, what can I do to have a higher relative advantage?). Sure, the more "microscopic" stuff might be less important on the larger maps, but I'd wager that the players who can do it on a larger map have a leg up. And I'd guess that's also why Nauz fails against the true "elites" of the game at a higher level.

I have no interest currently in being anything more than an "apple farmer." I'm a Small Earth player, and this was a Small Earth Series. I will continue to play Small Earth as long as it's fun for me (which will probably be some time, because I don't feel like I've mastered it yet.) What I want is to play more Small Earth matches against good Small Earth players. This no longer has anything to do with Nauz; there are several challengers and I would like to play at least one of them.

Point is, you need certain skills (e.g, efficient troop management, good anticipation skills, and being acutely aware of relative advantages, for example) to do well in Small Earth. Unless you think those skills don't help in other templates, then you aren't actually disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing for some semantic reason because it offends you on some weird level.

Point is, Nauz was really bad at the more "microscopic" elements of the game. Not even just in the sense that he didn't know Small Earth specifics (e.g, what territories are higher value in Small Earth, and what objectives are more important on Small Earth?"), but also in a generalist perspective too (e.g, what can I do to have a higher relative advantage?). Sure, the more "microscopic" stuff might be less important on the larger maps, but I'd wager that the players who can do it on a larger map have a leg up. And I'd guess that's also why Nauz fails against the true "elites" of the game at a higher level.

The little details are always important. What a top player who does well on many many templates is that the can immediately identify what those important details are about each template. They could have never seen a map or template before, never played on a map before, and they KNOW what the important details are which are critical to the outcome of the game.

Take my clanmate Octane for example. If you were to just catch him playing a game, I doubt you would ever see him playing small earth, or bothering to spend his time enshrining the small earth map/strategy/etc. He's a perennial top MDL player, http://md-ladder.cloudapp.net/player?playerId=3062174051 , a top 1v1 ladder player, https://www.warzone.com/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=14509 , and is currently locking down 1st place on the 3v3 ladder slot by himself with his alts.

Even without much small earth playing, he can jump into the seasonal ladder on small earth and get a top 10 performance: https://www.warzone.com/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=27233

Not because he spends his time pouring over small earth in particular, or any template for that matter, but because his overall fundamentals are strong.

You could of course, be able to replicate said performance on the small earth ladder if you spend all your time devoted to being an apple farmer. And I can respect that sort of dedication. But, spending your time finding the important microscopic details for a specific template doesn't necessarily help you internalize the overarching rules that MAKE those details important. You just know the details on said template. While admittedly that sort of detailed analysis of one template with help make you a decent player across all templates (much like I consider nauz a decent player across all templates), it won't allow you to compete against the best except on the template you specialize on (such as nauz being able to complete against top players orange farming, but he won't win the apple farming competition against you).

Welcome back from retirement, Mr. Gourdian.

I am still more or less retired. Look at how many points ive had last month. Doesn't stop me from lurking though.

Edited 6/18/2021 23:03:41

I see one big assumption in Aura's analysis of overall skill: it assumes that Small Earth skill falls under the same cluster as skill on other templates. But we don't really know that. In fact, as someone who's jumped from (being mediocre at) conventional medium-sized strategic play to (being mediocre at) Small Earth play, I'm inclined to agree with sanmu that Small Earth covers skills that can be brushed over on medium-sized templates.

With the Seasonal results, we can even somewhat validate this statistically by checking how well Small Earth results correlates with MTL performance and to see whether Small Earth rating falls into the same general cluster at the core of the MTL (see below - all MTL templates are roughly correlated with one another in terms of how well performance on one predicts performance on the others, although some clearly are more predictive than others, like Strat MME which is at the center for a reason; ignore the colors, the lines connect templates between which performance is directly highly correlated):



Small Earth keeps a lot of the features of Strat MME (0% SR, standard bonuses with chokepoints and the like), but the size might be a huge game-changer.

Wait, knyte, are you saying that Greece LD is a good predictor of skill on other templates?
Not that it surprises me, but I'll save that picture for the future

Edited 6/19/2021 08:39:41

^Yeah, can we analyze that graph a little more? I feel like there's so much meaning in it haha, and I don't understand all it's ramifications

Eh, it's not that meaningful, it basically just clusters templates where the necessary skills are similar together (that's why Randomized ME is next to ME as an example). It also does a poor job at that because it's 2D.
But I don't care, Greece LD is in the middle and I'll use that to my advantage.

Edited 6/19/2021 09:02:38

Ohhh got it. So are we trying to determine where Small Earth Wasteland and Small Earth Auto Dist would fall on that graph?

Well I don't think we are, except if knyte is doing something with the seasonal game data.
That being said, I'm most certain it'd be in the middle as well. Since it is arguably the most standard template out of those, you can assume that more SE skill correlates to more skill on all these other templates. As I said, it's not really meaningful, it doesn't really give an idea about the skill cap (which all the time was the debate here) - unless I drastically misinterpret this.

Edited 6/19/2021 09:16:20

There's all sorts of methodological flaws with that graph and the data is years old. I will do something with the seasonal data when the season ends.

We could do something similar to factor analysis, is what I was thinking.

And yes, it has nothing to do with skill cap. That can be measured differently, directly off of seasonal data. I was just responding to Aura's point by highlighting an assumption we have yet to confirm.

Edited 6/19/2021 15:04:42

Zero, Octane does play a fair bit of SE. He commonly plays large coin games on it. But yes, Octane is a very well rounded player so it's no surprise he will succeed at almost anything he tries.

Beep, you might wanna look a little harder before promoting that map, because Strat MME is at the very center and not ME :)

Edited 6/19/2021 17:21:16

yeah, but MME is in the middle because it's basic and simple, Greece LD is in the middle because it's a great indicator of skill and translates well to other templates

Edited 6/19/2021 17:30:50

I had to comment on the following quote
"shamu might be a great apple farmer, nauz a great orange farmer, but I don't see evidence that points to either one being the better fruit farmer overall. And sure, maybe shamu should try his hand at oranges, but ultimately the best way to gauge fruit farming skill would be to have them both try to cultivate cherries, mangos, grapefruit, peaches, etc. as well."

So let us use your new manta for judging other linked events.

The winner of the Epson Derby this year was Adayar (This is a Group 1 flat horse race in England open to three-year-old colts and fillies.
The winner of The Grand National this year was won by Minella Times, trained by Henry de Bromhead and ridden by Rachael Blackmore, who became the first female jockey to win the Grand National.

These are both Horse races, one on the flat one over challenging fencing. Are we to say the Grand National winner is less worthy of being a champion because it could not compete on the flat against Adayar? Likewise IS the Derby winner a pointless win because it could not compete with Minella over jumps?
We all know the answer. It is a facile statement to begrudge Shamu his walkover because he didn't play 10 other maps you have decided are more important. Come on give him a break. He has behaved with decorum
CAB

Captain, I was with you until you said this:

CAB

I don't think I should have to remind you of the no-politics rule on this site. There's no reason to insert politics or hurl profanity at our hard-working police in the middle of every ordinary conversation, although it's relieving that you apparently don't want to insult all cops.

These are both Horse races, one on the flat one over challenging fencing. Are we to say the Grand National winner is less worthy of being a champion because it could not compete on the flat against Adayar? Likewise IS the Derby winner a pointless win because it could not compete with Minella over jumps?
We all know the answer. It is a facile statement to begrudge Shamu his walkover because he didn't play 10 other maps you have decided are more important. Come on give him a break. He has behaved with decorum
CAB

Now this is just putting words in my mouth. I never intended to insinuate that Small Earth was somehow inferior. I just made a criticism towards sammu for trying to state that "small earth stresses the fundamentals of the game" moreso than other templates.

My general viewpoint is that a template specialist is a template specialist, and while a template specialist deserves respect on their template, I don't think that respect should necessarily translate to respect of general warzone skill.

If anything, I am being more critical of Nauz than sammu here, since I am more aware of his skill level on templates other than the one he specializes on. I certainly can respect nauz as an orange farmer, but that doesen't mean I will respect him as a fruit farmer.

Just like I said to Jacob as well, quote: I can respect you as an apple farmer, sure, but if you are looking to be respected as a fruit farmer in general, then I can't, since you seem fairly untested in that respect.

It's exactly the same.

Perhaps there are some players that don't respect small earth players. I am not one of them. While I certainly feel like the odds of luck deciding the outcome of a single game are slightly higher with SE templates than others, ultimately the relative skill of players on a template can be found out by playing a series of games (e.g. best of 11) or so on, much as with any other template.

If huddyj was able to be a perennial first place finisher on the rather competitive small earth promotion/relegation league, then there was obviously something he was able to do more skillfully than his opponents. I know the SE P/R league uses a different template (the "old" SE template), but I think SEAD/SE1W probably fall under a similar sort of blanket in terms of a skill scene.

Edited 6/19/2021 23:13:31

And if you are wondering about my phrasing about this:

All I see in this thread here are two players with big egos trying to bash each other's ability - and some players are taking it as an opportunity to bash nauz because he resigned on ONE template. shamu might be a great apple farmer, nauz a great orange farmer, but I don't see evidence that points to either one being the better fruit farmer overall. And sure, maybe shamu should try his hand at oranges, but ultimately the best way to gauge fruit farming skill would be to have them both try to cultivate cherries, mangos, grapefruit, peaches, etc. as well.

It could be just a misread on your part. Maybe it seems to you that im suggesting that shamu needs to attempt to farm oranges because an orange farmer is somehow superior to an apple farmer. This is not what I intended.

This originates from the observation that shamu is the apple (small earth) farmer, nauzhor the orange (MME) farmer, and that the two competed in terms of apple farming.

Regardless of how this came to be (nauz declaring apple farming to be "easy"), my affront deals moreso with shamu's proclamation that apple farming somehow "stresses the fundamentals of fruit farming" more than any other type of fruit farming.

The reason why I made the suggestion that shamu maybe should try his hand at orange farming is that would give us a better idea of the relative skill of the two players, instead of shamu just insinuating that nauz's fundamentals are more flawed than his only after a competition which suited the strengths of shamu. After all, we had the orange farmer compete in apple farming, but we never saw the apple farmer try to compete in orange farming.

I hope that makes more sense.

Edited 6/19/2021 23:08:50

@Hades

Also, there's no need for these challenges, if sanmu or anyone else wants to prove they are good at (real) SE then they should join the P/R league https://www.warzone.com/Forum/537328-small-earth-promotionrelegation-league-season-22

or the seasonal ladder for these SE settings.

The point was that Johnny hates SE, thus he's not going to join an SE league or ladder, so the challenge was necessary in that sense. He was making a concession just playing SE at all.