What do we know is that the competition is not working.
For a long time the community have asked for change.
So why is there no change?

Is it too difficult to change?
Does Fizzer not see the problem?

It might be a little bit of both but I will come up with some suggestions and give it another go to try and make something happen.
In Myth Busters we think the competion as it is today is boring and a bad way to play for a community win. We want a fair, more fun and better competition.

Feel free to wite some suggestions.

I already have an idea ready I want to pitch Fizzer but we will need the support from everyone.
His normal responce would be that there is activity today so its working the way it is.
Maybe show activity in this tread to show we need a change.

Ill create a tread where I say I am working on something mindblowing tomorrow!
Maybe "mindblowing" is what Fizzer wants!

I think its mostly not worth the effort, in the sense that it quickly becomes clear when you've won what is achievable due to the linear reward structure.

The rewards for getting 6th are the same as for getting 10th, and each season 6th has more than twice as many wins, and perhaps 3 times as much games as 10th.

Take TLA and FDC for example, its pretty clear both clans will end up being either 7th or 8th. From a reward perspective, its not worth it for either clan to really push to gain victory over the other, cause the rewards are exactly the same.

That problem is also visible within clans, where I sometimes notice players are very active at the start of a new CW season, but once they got their first and only win, they qualify for the rewards, and then just farm the effort of their clanmates. I can imagine that is also not very motivating for the few people who do actively play CW.

A possible solution to this problem would be that everyone must complete X games to get the rewards for the X-th territory. That would make every CW season 25-30 days, since people need to get a chance to play 20 games, but also not too much chances to make sure they do actively play.

As for the clan rewards, tie those to games played as well.
More games played is more reward, regardless of place. It undermines the skill aspect of the competition a little bit more, but at least it will urge people to keep playing. To keep the skill in the competition as well, maybe split the prices? Half of it awarded based on total games, the other half on total wins.

In my opinion the rewards doesnt matter at all.
We could remove them.

But i guess for the overall aspect its ok they are there :)

Solid points JK_3. Yes my plan with FDC was to qualify for a reward bracket as opposed to a placement. Yes we shoot to for friendly competition but there really isn't much of a carrot to encourage us to hit harder. Aside from reward bracket we get the bonus boosts attached to territories taken but they aren't much of a motivator in themselves. Also, the homogenization of the Pro players into a handful of clans has created (at this point) a very predictive final ranking for this and future CW.

@Samek would a league system feel more interesting?

Knowing the best teams promoted and a new season is about to start?
How many teams in a league ? ;)

Haha I'm well aware of CLs existence and it looks like we may have enough interested to participate in the upcoming season. :)

In my opinion the rewards doesnt matter at all.
We could remove them.

While you might be fighting for glory, most players are only doing CW for the idle rewards ;)

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Also, the homogenization of the Pro players into a handful of clans has created (at this point) a very predictive final ranking for this and future CW.

Yeah, besides the top 1/2 and 3/4/5 the rewards aren't really worth the effort, so anyone that really cares about CW moves to those 5 clans, making the problem for the other clans even bigger.
Note that pro CW players in this case doesnt relate to just skill, but also to activity.

I agree with JK's clarification. ●

Worth taking into consideration.
So IDLE rewards actually matters in some way.

There is a core group of WL players who don't feel the need for Idle Rewards but I think there is now a substantial amount of WZ Idle players who appreciate how CW helps benefit their Idle progress. I think the current baked in CW caters to bridging the gap between Classic and Idle, like Arenas do.

I've suggested the same. The people that primarily play to win are in it for the fun, the glory of being #1, not really the rewards. And having rewards just gives people something to latch onto to say "the rewards aren't worth it". But almost every other WZ competition has less rewards than CW (or none at all) and you don't hear "not worth it" for those. It's a game, isn't the fun of playing it enough? (;

In my opinion the rewards doesnt matter at all.
We could remove them.

The 2nd option. When asked @ an AMA if CW changes were in the works, the response was "Everything is working well, no changes planned." Even after pointing out some of the issues, same response. Best guess is that he doesn't see these problems b/c he's not a CW player. He plays the occasional game (this season, only played once), sees that it's doing what made it do, calls it a Success.

Is it too difficult to change?
Does Fizzer not see the problem?

To really get him to see the issues, you'd likely have to recruit him into MB or MH and get him to actually try to win, feel the pressure of playing every day, squadding, not getting the templates you like, etc. Though even then, I suspect it may not quite yield the intended results. Rumour is that he likes the odd templates, and that's likely the reason he made CW that way. He says he makes the game to be a game he'd like to play. Doesn't matter if others don't like it that way. So it ends up that even though he's not even an average consumer of it, it's made the way he likes it, and really not many others.

I've found that he's a reasonable person once you've convinced him, but it's not easy to convince him to change his mind. And convincing him means making him believe/realize that CW is not in fact working well. Not just that the user base isn't happy with it - that's not enough, but rather that in his own opinion that it isn't working well.

But I would like to see him be a top performer (or at least a top participator) on MB or MH for 2-3 seasons and see if his opinion changes at all.

Edited 9/12/2022 18:32:09

i like weird templates too.
I've been wondering why Georgia (army cap) is not part of it.

Or simply have only 1 template all day, so people must diversify instead of waiting for the next slot.

Ultimately we are, in fact, along for the ride on Fizzer's labor of love. We can share opinions and such but as a fellow creator, I can understand him filtering out all our screaming into the void. Also, there is many a case of other online games whom the creator tried to cater to the communities whim and it went wrong. I think Fizzer is trying his best to find balance and sanity.

And yes Krinid, it would be nice to see him do some more hands on testing of the CW systems from a players perspective. ^_^

Oh yeah, 1 template a day sounds like something fun, and then we could pull from a larger list of templates as well, instead of all the MME stuff we have right now.

Slide in some more interesting templates, there are plenty to pick from :)

That's an interested idea, actually! Makes it a matter of "do I play on this template or skip the entire day?" Would be cool if it was a cycle of some kind, actually, not just a random selection. No reason we can't publish every template for the entire season up front, but even 1 week would be useful. So you're not on MB or MH and don't actually play every day, you know that if you really want to play (for example) MME LD C which is on Weds, that's your day to target.

Or simply have only 1 template all day, so people must diversify instead of waiting for the next slot.

Well said Samek, we are riding the Fizzer bus that takes us to the planned stops, and we're welcome to get off at any point if we're unhappy with where the bus is going. We can recommend detours, but when the bus continues along the already defined route making no deviations, we really shouldn't be surprised.

Edited 9/12/2022 18:46:09

1 template per day would encourage players to learn and improve their WZ skills. For those whom dislike the template of the day, then they can wait for the next slot. Doesn't sound like a half bad idea. Would curtail the MH/MB current strategy. xD

Myself and others have given detailed explanations on the matter in other threads in the past, I will refrain from repeating everything, but I can link the threads if wanted

@alex link please ;)

"That problem is also visible within clans, where I sometimes notice players are very active at the start of a new CW season, but once they got their first and only win, they qualify for the rewards, and then just farm the effort of their clanmates. I can imagine that is also not very motivating for the few people who do actively play CW. "

That is a problem for the clams to deal with. Somebody is doing 1 win and done, and if that is annoying, boot to the head Frantics/Four on the Floor style. Or not.


As for rewards, It's barely worth it as it is. Get rid of rewards, I sure as hell am done and I doubt I would be the only one. There is no downside to offering rewards so why not keep them.

Ditto for having one template and forcing people to improve their game. Screw that. SEAD is all you NEAD, or SE1W in a pinch. Short simple games. Start making it more difficult and again I am not the only one who will consider it not worth the effort.

I am sure lots of people have lots of grand ideas that suit them perfectly but the game overlords have other people and considerations to keep in mind.
It works, could it be better, sure, could it be much much worse, yeah.
SEAD and SE1W get about 80+ plus of the participation, I think that tells you all you need to know about what most people think of clam wars. Get rewards and as quick and easy as possible. If most players were interested in a challenge those maps would not dominate.

I do wish the templates would be announced a day in advance. Nothing worse than waiting for a time slot and seeing nothing but complete horror show for the levels.

*joins your rain dance*

reiterating all my suggestions from https://www.warzone.com/Forum/591146-clan-wars-dying- and https://www.warzone.com/Forum/641055-cw-20-players-cap

also reiterating my suggestion that we try to solve this as a community by creating a new community event with better-thought-out incentive structures & some sort of [legal] workaround to the CLOT system handicap, because we have been dancing this rain dance for over a year now and yet the sky remains clear and our crops thirsty