Captain Summary is here!

@Alphazomgyy: Let's vote on CW Maps

@stefano36000: Let's vote on CW Templates, not maps

@JK_3: Final decision on these votes should be determined by the council of noobs

@krinid: Let's use QM templates for voting

@otto: Let's not change CW templates too often

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My opinion:
1) 3 fixed templates on every timeslot;

Luck-based: SEAD

Strat-based: SE1W

Balanced: SECB

2) 3 additional non-fixed templates on every timeslot;

Luck-based: LOT3*, <a voted template>, <another voted template>

Strat-based: S1V1, S2V2 (or a voted template), MALD (or a voted template)

Balanced: COLD, GUIR (or a voted template), FREB** (or a voted template)

*3-player Lotto ("LOT3" sounds like "lottree" which sounds like "lottery" :P)
**Not experienced in French Brawl, maybe it should be in "Strat-based" but it looks better on balanced

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This opinion ensures that;
1) We get to choose certain templates
2) CW templates will be much more stable
3) There will always be a template for everyone, in all timeslots

Luck-based/lottery is a terrible idea to include in a competition that is supposed to be... well, competitive. It shouldn't be about just rewarding activity, we have other things for that. Activity is one thing, but it absolutely has to be skill based to some extent. Stuff like SEAD is a good balance. Lottery isn't. Should not be allowed anywhere near CW.

@waffle 2.0

lottery is a terrible idea

- CW is supposed to be for all players not only for the best players. Winning chance of LOT3 is 33.34%, so it won't effect the competition. It will only encourage non-participants to participate more in CW and stop good players from torturing noobs.

- And don't steal people's desire to play LOT3. If you don't like LOT3, just don't play it and don't vote for it.

Then make a lower skill template where you still are required to actually think... like SEAD, where you have auto distribution which makes it possible to win by sheer luck a lot of the time if you are not an absolute beginner...

The argument that "it should be for all players"... well, it IS for all players. It's not difficult to learn the ropes enough to be able to win sometimes in CW, especially on templates like SEAD or SE1W. Sure, you will get wrecked by someone out of your league sometimes, but that's the entire point of a competitive setting - the best players win. That's what CW should be about - the best clan winning. Lottery templates do not serve that goal at all. While I understand you also want to include new players, I don't think it should be done in this way. I'm fine with CW not being something for absolute beginners and only something you can get wins in if you are semi-decent. If you aren't, you can learn elsewhere, there's plenty of resources for those who want it. But yeah, lottery is a big NO from me. It's a bridge too far. You want more auto distribution templates? sure. More FFA? More *insert setting here*? Absolutely, go for it. But no lottery. I can't be the only one who finds this idea of lottery in CW stupid. You should be allowed to have any template there which is shown in open games if you have "hide lottery games" on. Lottery games aren't even played for their own sake, they're played for the sake of lowering your bootrate, getting points, getting a win for the coin spin on mobile. CW should at least require you to play WZC. I rest my case.

PS: I have no qualms with lottery templates being in quickmatch or open games because they are not really competitive settings. QM can be treated like one, but doesn't have to, and I feel like most people don't treat it like one, but merely a way to get a match quickly. Clan Wars is different, there's incentive to get to the top for rewards. You shouldn't get rewards for merely participating and getting lucky, ideally in any circumstances (though we all know sometimes you get free wins). You should still be made to at least somewhat work for it, like in SEAD, where you still have to use your better spawns in a way that benefits you by actually strategizing.

Edited 4/12/2023 11:45:36

I am totally opposed to lotto. Actually any lotto template should be removed from all of WZ, and definitely not included in CW.

CW is and should be "for anybody playing in a clan" - not matter whether they are mainly idle and only are looking for CW idle rewards or whether they are "classic / strategic" players.

2 additional SE templates should be added: "SEAD balanced" and "SE1W balanced" with (more) balanced, starts (or pick territories), in essence, quick games, but with less of a luck factor than SEAD and SE1W.

And in every CW slot should be 2 SE template games - SEAD or SE1W balanced or SEAD balanced + SE1W. Except for S1v1 all other templates are total minority program and will never attract newer/less advanced players. Only the walruses.

CW should be geared LESS towards favoring walruses and walrus clans. Walruses and walrus clans have all sorts of other venues to play "elitist" to their heart's content: all sorts of ladders and CL. No need to hand over CW as well to them, which is the only "playground" for non-walruses.

Edited 4/12/2023 11:58:47

Does "maps" mean as in what you get when you click "view maps"

"it should be for all players"

Agree, and this means Lotto is out. It should be for all players. Let's be clear, Lotto is not a WZ game. Yes, it's manifested in a WZ match, but you are by no means "playing Warzone" when you join a Lotto game. You are simply playing a game of chance. 0% WZ knowledge/skill is required beyond understanding the interface (deploy armies, how to attack, how to commit). So if we agree that CW is for players, then we already agree that Lotto has no place there

But Lottos are not useless! They are good for goofing around, reducing boot rate, get a daily spin, gathering XP, etc, just don't belong in CW

Edited 4/12/2023 13:49:45

If lottery games weren't in WZ, they would have to be invented. I'm not opposed to them existing, they can be very useful, I'm just opposed to them being in CW.

also +1 krinid ^ exactly my point

Edited 4/12/2023 13:45:05

I would have no problem with lotto templates being added to the CW rotation.

I can maintain a >70% participation and a >70% win rate comfortably so a pure lotto player (100% participation, 50% win rate) poses no threat to me.

But real life gets in the way sometimes and lotto games would be a nice way to roll the dice on a day I otherwise couldn’t play. It’s a game, it’s supposed to be for fun!

@TheGreatLeon
In a 20 day CW season:
- 70% participation with 70% WR on strategic templates = 10 games won
- 100% participation with 50% WR on lotto templates = 10 games won

So a clan of 40 Lotto players with 100% participation could match a clan of 40 strat players with 70% participation with 1% of the effort

Looking at the past few seasons, MB had WRs of: S29 68%, S28 71%, S27 66%, so MB would win S28 but lose S27 and S29 under these circumstances

What you’re describing is not that different from how CW works now with SEAD serving as the “lotto” placeholder and Prime serving as the “lotto clan”

If you add lotto games, some of those 30% no-shows from the “strategic” clan become wins and we get more separation, not less

So a clan of 40 Lotto players with 100% participation could match a clan of 40 strat players with 70% participation with 1% of the effort

What is the longest streak of "40 players having 100% participation"? I guess if it is "1% of the effort", we should see so many high participating clans. no?

I can maintain a >70% participation and a >70% win rate comfortably so a pure lotto player (100% participation, 50% win rate) poses no threat to me.

Imho, that's the words or a true CW winner.

Fair enough ... I didn't consider that with Lotto in the mix, any clan could bring their PP70 up to close to 100% to arbitrarily pad their stats

It would be just another silly mechanic, forcing every clan to have every player login and initiate (I won't say "play") a Lotto game for 50% WR on those days they can't play a strategic template to avoid being penalized for not playing Lotto

So MB would be WR 70% for 70% of games, and WR 50% for 30% = 13 wins > 10 (100% Part / 50% WR full lotto)

I can maintain a >70% participation and a >70% win rate comfortably so a pure lotto player (100% participation, 50% win rate) poses no threat to me.

But the difference here is that winning that 50% is within the design of the played template whereas you would have to "work" for the 70% WR.

I thus agree with what krinid and waffle stated before: there should be some minimal competition be required in each template which is part of the whole competition CW. Leave lotto in QM and as template for other use cases, but I would also rather like to not see it in CW.

I looked at all the comments opposing LOT3. In short;

@waffle 2.0 & @krinid thinks: CW should be competitive, lottery is luck based. Hence it shouldn't be in CW.

@NONO thinks: CW shouldn't be competitive, but I still don't want lottery.

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- First of all, CW shouldn't be solely for WZC-Competitive players (aka Walruses). It should be for everyone. As NONO stated, Walruses has lots of places to hang out (CL, Ladder, MTL etc.). CW is something that unites all kinds of players (Classic & Idle) and definitely shouldn't just serve Walruses. All templates except lottery gives Classic players advantage over Idle. Hence, they should stop thinking for themselves for 1 second and let Idle players have 1 equal template.

- In LOT3 template, each participant has 33.34% chance of winning while in SEAD, people has 50% chance of winning (excluding skill). Because LOT3 has significantly lower win rate, it will not effect competitive players. Adding LOT3 will actually improve competitive play because this way, non-competitive players will play in LOT3 while competitive players will stay in SEAD. Which means walruses will fight walruses and casuals will fight casuals.

- Walruses need to understand that we are talking about LOT3 solely because some of them join easiest templates just to grab easy points by destroying noobs. If you don't want LOT3, you don't need to write me walls of text, just stop abusing CW to harm new players and problem will be over. But some people just wants to keep abusing new players and they would rather crush thousands just to get a little point. They'll keep doing everything in their power to abuse CW and will oppose anything that might stop their abuse...

@waffle 2.0 & @krinid thinks: CW should be competitive, lottery is luck based. Hence it shouldn't be in CW.

You don't give full justice to the point we're making (as you tend to...). The point is that CW should require you to play a WZ Classic game. Lottery cannot even be considered actually playing a game since you do so little in it. It's pointless. I share krinid's view that it would just be a silly mechanic.

First of all, CW shouldn't be solely for WZC-Competitive players (aka Walruses)

So... everyone who plays non-lottery games by actually trying to win?

CW is something that unites all kinds of players (Classic & Idle) and definitely shouldn't just serve Walruses. All templates except lottery gives Classic players advantage over Idle. Hence, they should stop thinking for themselves for 1 second and let Idle players have 1 equal template.

But the point is to have a crossover between Classic and Idle in some areas. In CW, you are playing Classic, and rewarded for being good at Classic, because that is how Classic works. You don't have to play it, or you don't have to be good at it, but if you are, you will get more. I don't think that should be changed. What could be done is better skill-based matchmaking, if you are concerned about better players facing significantly worse, maybe primarily Idle players. Ultimately though, CW is a competition in Classic, and should follow the rules which make Classic fun, which typically has to do with winning in some capacity, or, at the very least, playing an actual game of Classic, not lottery, where you only commit, or make a single attack all game. Want to equalize skill? Advocate for templates which include automatic distribution, for instance. That's more luck-dependent while still ensuring you play an actual game. Don't bring lottery into this.

In LOT3 template, each participant has 33.34% chance of winning while in SEAD, people has 50% chance of winning (excluding skill). Because LOT3 has significantly lower win rate, it will not effect competitive players. Adding LOT3 will actually improve competitive play because this way, non-competitive players will play in LOT3 while competitive players will stay in SEAD. Which means walruses will fight walruses and casuals will fight casuals.

Again, that is not the point I am making. Sure, it won't harm being competitive, but the principle should be that CW should require you to play an actual game of WZC, and engage with the mechanics to an extent greater than just knowing how to attack and commit.

Walruses need to understand that we are talking about LOT3 solely because some of them join easiest templates just to grab easy points by destroying noobs. If you don't want LOT3, you don't need to write me walls of text, just stop abusing CW to harm new players and problem will be over. But some people just wants to keep abusing new players and they would rather crush thousands just to get a little point. They'll keep doing everything in their power to abuse CW and will oppose anything that might stop their abuse...

That seems like a dumb and misguided personal attack directed at.... nobody in particular? I'm really not sure who you're talking to, or what you even want to achieve with this paragraph. All it sounds like is flaming at an enemy that doesn't exist.

TLDR, I don't know what did you wrote in that wall of text but since I literally summarized all of your prior walls of texts in one sentence, its probably not very enlightening. I'll just respond with one thing:

Nobody's forcing you to play LOT3, if you don't like it don't play. But don't attack people's desire to enjoy the game with various templates like lotto

[sarcasm on]
Since CW is commonly seen as a cross-over between idle and classic, I hereby propose mandatory CW days, where only idle levels are offered in CW slots and played in a wzib (warzone idle battle) format.

I would be happy to see a 2vs2 idle battle of ivan and me versus flexus and tacky!
[sarcasm off]

yes, that would be very cool otto

it would also make it clear that CW is not a strategic competition and should only be played for idle rewards