Overall: great update!
Here are my 2 cents (nitpicking):

Rating system
Love the change and also the individual ratings in team ladders.

Rewards
Also love the league thing (although personally I believe the mechanism should be more activity-based for this one, for reference see the league system on chess.com). But this works fine too.
Nice change to the trophy.

Booting
This is a tough one. The way you play competitive games is different from your usual tournament. You try to win, and want to put in better moves than just something you can come up with in a minute. Procrastination of tough turns (and every game has 2-3 of those) is a normal thing and 1 day boot puts quite some pressure, especially for team games I don't see this working out. 2 days would be fine with me, because at least you're not forced to make room for discussions daily.

NLC
Well there's another thread now, but no, please no.

@Fizzer: most of the changes in your blog post are absolutely great, but please don't introduce NLC to the ladders. I think I can speak for the entire strat community if I say it would ruin the ladders.

the picking stage without NLC already is really good by itself and I think less than 1% of the games gets decided by 'randomness during pick stage' (maybe apart from SE1W, but let's leave that one out for this discussion). if you lose first pick, you know for sure you'll get second and third pick, and so on. the entire logic behind it already creates such a flow that randomness will only affect games to such an extent when both players end up having the exact same set of picks, which barely happens. NLC on the other hand would have players focus on picking as fast as possible instead of looking deeply into possible pick combinations and therefore is actually less strategical through my eyes (and I think many are with me on this).

regarding the adjusted boot time: I've already seen people say it will be too little, but I'm actually in favor of reducing boot time for the 1v1 ladder as you describe. I do however think that 1d boot time for the 2v2 and 3v3 ladder will be too little time, since you'll have to discuss moves with your teammate back-and-forth each turn while both of you will be online during different times of the day (not even including different time zones). I therefore think 2d boot might be better fitting for the team ladders. regarding the Seasonal ladder: will you keep 3d boot there or do you also plan on adjusting that one to 1d boot? I fear 1d boot might be too little since you get 5 games at once at the start of the season and after that games start piling up fairly quickly.

despite those comments of mine I truly think this will be a great update and am excited to play the ladders again soon! :)

This post is getting long, let me wrap everything up real quick;

There is a new update (focused on ladder) coming soon, so community wrote what they expect from incoming update. Which are;

- Improved rating for the ladder (Fizzer already announced it weeks earlier)
- Better UX (GUI) for the ladder
- Improved statistics and history for the ladder
- Better rewards (like coins, Idle stuff)
- More accurate trophy rewarding (instead of giving trophy once become #1, you need to stay #1 for a brief time)
- Additional cosmetic rewards (like special player colours & Mastery titles for successful ladder participants)
- Stalling Detection for the ladder
- Real-time ladder (like QM but focused on finding opponents with same skill not finding opponents fast)
- More achievements about the ladder
- Fixing Vacation System
- Rewarding players who promotes the game

After that, Fizzer responded with announcing the changes, he'll make on the ladder. Which are;

- Improved rating for the ladder (More accurate rating + Individual rating for team ladders + no rating depreciation due to inactivity)
- Better UX (GUI) for the ladder (App integration to ladders)
- Improved statistics and history for the ladder (Ranking changes throughout each game will be accessible + ranks updated instantly)
- Better rewards (like coins, Idle stuff)
- More accurate trophy rewarding (you need to stay #1 for a week for trophy)
- Setting changes (1-day booting time + 3v3 slight map change + Pure skill picking)
- League System (Bronze, Silver, Gold etc. Leagues)
- Solo runs on team ladder
- Better seasonal ladder (60-day seasons + Smooth season transition + Rewarding after each season + consistent template change)
- More informative ladder notifications

---

Personal Perception to Changes;

1) Improved Rating: Sound even better than expected but maybe there can still be small depreciation since people sometimes forget their old strategies when not playing for a time

2) Better UX: Awesome! Curious to see how it will be implemented

3) Improved Statistics: Nice, looking forward to this change as well

4) Better Rewards: Cool! Players should definitely be rewarded for playing here. Higher ranking players should definitely get more but if the reward difference is to much, it can lead to lots of frustrated players. I'm curious to see this too

5) Accurate Trophy Rewarding: Getting to #1 spot already required lots of effort and determination, so I personally don't care much about it but its seems to be another nice change

6) Setting Changes:
- 1v1 Boot Time: My preferred boot time is; 1-day regular + 1-day banked + 6-hour refresh per day. Fizzer's change is basically same but without the refresh so I believe small tweak is needed but I'm still happy with this change.
- Team Boot Time: My preferred boot time is; 2-day regular + 1-day banked + 12-hour refresh per day. Fizzer's change is 1-day regular + 3-day banked which is too quick for me. My current 2v2 partner plays the game actively but we still consistently require at least 1-2 days to communicate properly (and I'm not even talking about 3v3). So hopefully, Fizzer will provide more boot-time for team ladders
- Pure Skill Setting: This is a big nono for me. For RT games, its nice but MD games that you can never know when its gonna start, its too risky and ironically, luck-based.

7) League System: Another nice addition, players can see their progress & position much easier and clearly now.

8) Solo Runs: Interesting... It will not change much but this additional option is definitely a positive step

9) Better Seasonal Ladder: 75-day always felt awkward, looks good in general

10) Better Notifications: Never used notifications on ladder, but I'm sure it will be useful for other people so this is another welcomed addition

Agree strongly with Beep and Gak

+1 beep and gak

teamgames should have higher boot times just makes sense/more fun

Happy to see a change to ladders. It's been a while since they got an update, almost to the point where they felt a bit forgotten about.
I'll give my two cents as I feel strongly about a few things.

New rating system
I like the idea of a new rating system. The current one obviously needs some change. I don't know enough of the details to know if this is perfect or not. But very happy to see a change in this regard!

Rewards
I think better rewards that are more in line with what the community needs are great. Good change!

Leagues
A good system that has been tried in other games. Excited to see how it will work with non-decaying ratings.

App Integration
The first one I feel strongly about. This one is great! I love the idea of making ladders more and more accessible and available. The way ladders were connected to the app was abysmal. Hopefully, this works wonders for the popularity of the strategic side of the game!

Team Ladders
This one isn't fully clear to me, so I would appreciate a little bit of extra information in regard to this. From what I understand there'll be one rating system, that ranks people individually based on their performance across all their teams? But I don't fully understand where the "fixed teams" and "individual teams" comes from.

Boot times
This is another one I feel strongly about, but unfortunately in a negative way this time. I understand that, from a developer's perspective, you want to incentivise people to be online every day, but I do not think this is the way. Clan Wars works great for that and I think having a shorter boot timer on QuickMatch is fine as well. But the ladders are the strategic aspect of the game. The only people who will join are people who are already more invested in the game.

I don't see a 1-day boot timer as an incentive but rather as something that forces me to play every day. This doesn't give me a good feeling, even with banked time there. As others have suggested, there might be a way to change the boot time on the 1v1 ladder in a better way. For the team ladders, I'd personally strongly suggest keeping the boot time to 3 days. Different time zones, one person being sick or having some form of appointment during the time that you are free can completely screw you over. Plus team games take a lot more time to discuss and decide on moves. This makes them fun, but with a 1-day boot, they'll mainly be stressful.

You said

today we have internet-connected phones and the game is much more accessible.

And while this is true, I do not feel like this is an adequate reason to change the boot times. Just because I have an opportunity to play Warzone, doesn't mean I feel like it or that I'm in the right headspace. If I would rather read a book in my free time I should have the opportunity to do so. One of the reasons I liked Warzone, and have been here for well over 11 years now, is that I never felt the pressure to be online every single day.

I think this change will put pressure on the 1v1 ladder, but people will adapt there.
For the team ladders, however, I feel like this would be close to a killing blow. Which would be a shame. Warzone is already relatively short of competitive team events and I don't want the team ladders to lose their strategic value. Even with the 3 day boot time, I've had plenty of times where it was close to whether or not my team and I would be able to make moves in time. Despite everybody trying and doing their best to be there.

Seasonal Ladder
I'm fine with the change, although I have to say I don't personally mind the 75-day season either. I'm fine with having a few extra days of rest at the end of the season if I'm done earlier with my games. It's like a little mini-break.

Template Changes
I don't mind the change in template, but I would personally prefer Cyclic over NLC. The people before me have explained adequately why this is the case, I don't think I need to type it out again.

Notifications
Honestly, I don't really care all that much about this. But it makes a lot of sense, so a good change.

Please no NLC.

Looks like an overwhelmingly positive update for the 1v1 ladder, but I have mixed feelings about the team ladders.

I even agree with the idea of reductions of boot times, but 24h for team games is seriously too extreme. I really think 2d base time would hit the sweet spot.
All the other changes sound absolutely fantastic, but I can't tell if team ladders will be fun anymore with such a demanding timer.

...is there any chance for a revision of this one particular change?...

Edited 5/3/2023 13:32:59

@Min34

From what I understand there'll be one rating system, that ranks people individually based on their performance across all their teams?

▶ In team games (like 1v1), every player will have their own ratings. Let's say that I'm in 2v2 ladder with Fizzer and our rating is 1600 while you are in a ladder with Alexclusive and your rating is 1800. If we leave our partners and decide to go for 2v2 ladder together, I'll still have 1600 rating and you'll still have 1800 rating. The game will probably try to find opponent team around 1700 ratings. As we win games, our ratings will still increase but my rating will probably increase faster than yours (because I had lower rating than you).

I don't fully understand where the "fixed teams" and "individual teams" comes from.

▶ Because its a new concept, its completely natural. In the current 2v2 ladder, there is no such thing as "individual teams". We first find a partner, "fix" our team and then start the ladder. With this new system, I'll be able to join 2v2 ladder without finding a partner. Matchmaking will automatically find a partner for me. Fizzer is referring to this as "individual teams".

---

I don't see a 1-day boot timer as an incentive but rather as something that forces me to play every day. This doesn't give me a good feeling

▶ You are absolutely right about this. This new boot time on 1v1 ladder fill force players to play everyday. Looks like your view is negative because you wanna play ladder casually (like after reading a book, hang out and other stuff).

On the other hand, ladder is one of the most competitive part of the game (if not the most). And people who joins the ladder should at least dedicate like 10 minutes of their every day. Even when you're in the restroom, you can just casually open the game through phone, think about your move, and play it. The most time consuming for me is the picking phase but I'll still have at least 2 days with that banked time so I don't believe 1v1 ladder will be too fast.

Moreover, with the current 3-day system, If you match with a staller, even 1 game feels like infinity. I already wrote that I expect 1v1 ladder boot-time should be slightly increased (through 6 hour banked time refresh per day) (my post is 3 post above yours), but I perceive this change as a nice move. All of your other views are almost same with mine, so this is the only part I disagree.

You are absolutely right about this. This new boot time on 1v1 ladder fill force players to play everyday. Looks like your view is negative because you wanna play ladder casually (like after reading a book, hang out and other stuff).

On the other hand, ladder is one of the most competitive part of the game (if not the most). And people who joins the ladder should at least dedicate like 10 minutes of their every day. Even when you're in the restroom, you can just casually open the game through phone, think about your move, and play it. The most time consuming for me is the picking phase but I'll still have at least 2 days with that banked time so I don't believe 1v1 ladder will be too fast.

I actually strongly disagree with that, and the opposite would be true for me - playing a game with 1 day boot time is more casual, since it gives you less time to think your move over. It means you sometimes just run out of time and go with your best guess, which might be just a random plan you came up with on the trot because you really don't have time for anything else on that day. 3 day works good for me if I want to take my time coming up with the best move I can think of, and also especially for team games, where you really need time to exchange ideas. I think anything shorter than 2 days is not a good idea.

Other than that, I welcome and/or have no strong opinions on the changes (apart from NLC, I agree with anyone who says it's a bad idea)

In fact, I would argue that not knowing turn order (not to mention having to screw around with zero-orders) is a more common and more annoying scenario.

That's part of the magic! You can figure out the turn order when it's cyclic. No need to introduce NLC when it can lead to second pick being best. In fact, I'd reduce or waive the advantage TrueSkill can give for getting 'first pick'. In chess, the bots like stockfish and Leela give white an advantage. That's why rating systems correct for this. In Warlight it's not all that obvious whether first or second pick gives an advantage, although first pick on the particular Strat MME template is more often an advantage than getting second pick. Then again, it shouldn't matter in the long run.

I love the addition of leagues and I trust TrueSkill to be a good rating system in a competition as big as the 1v1 ladder. My concern lies with the 2v2 and 3v3 ladders. If activity does not spike as much as suggested, then having ratings that are constant throughout time can invalidate results due to rating inflation and deflation. It takes a while for the system to adjust ratings to the current ladder. For example, let's say we get a huge spike in the 2v2 ladder right now. TrueSkill ratings will be very high to fairly distinguish players in terms of skill. Then someone doesn't join for a year, the spike in players is gone, but the player still has their old rating. This boosts them in rank. We've seen this issue with the RTL over and over again. An activity bonus as implemented on the MTL would fix most of that.

That's about all the criticism I have, I absolutely love the rest! I don't care about boot times, since I'll be booted anyways. This is just ripping the band-aid off earlier >.>

Also, when will these changes take effect? I'd love to see how TrueSkill works on the 1v1 ladder

It means you sometimes just run out of time and go with your best guess, which might be just a random plan you came up with on the trot because you really don't have time for anything else on that day

▶ So you are agreeing with me that 1-day sometimes not enough. That's why I said there should be 6-hour refresh on banked-time. Min34 said every move should be 3-day (his quote: "I'd personally strongly suggest keeping the boot time to 3 days"). On the other hand, you say "you sometimes just run out of time". You are actually agreeing with me, just not aware of it :P

Looks like your view is negative because you wanna play ladder casually (like after reading a book, hang out and other stuff).

Quite the opposite actually. Just like waffle, I tend to play faster in much more casual games. That's because I don't need to think nor care about the game.
Imo it's weird to say "I take this game seriously so I take all my turns within 10 minutes and will play every day", because, to me, taking the game seriously means that you will take your time thinking about your picks or moves. You might want to think multiple turns ahead or think about what your opponent will do and how you will react. Going over the options you have might take some time.
I'm not the best 1v1 player on the site, but I'll play to a level where I often meet those who are among the very top. The smallest mistake might cost you the game or change your chances.
I want to take it seriously and I think strategic gameplay should represent ones skill. To me, this is minimised when you have 1 day to do your picks or moves. If someone has had a busy day at work, some plans during the weekend or just is sick or something and they're still forced to take a turn they're more likely to make mistakes due to external factors. 2 days with banked or 3 days flat boot is a nice middle road between the game moving forward at a good pace and people getting to choose the optimal time for them to make their moves.

Keeping the 3 days was mainly in reference to the team ladders. Teamgames are intense and take time. At a high level its uncommon to have a voice chat that's less than 30 minutes long for moves and voice chats for picks will go on longer than that. It's unreasonable to expect two people from different timezones to find compatible times to be online for at least 30 minutes with both being in a good space to do so every single day. In a lot of the more serious teamgames I've played we tended to make picks on one day and then review them again at a later time. Its nice to have time to think and mull things over. I think that tends to improve strategic gameplay and let's people play to their best abilities.

Clan League is atm the biggest competition at the highest level. The MTL is also a big competition that's focused on 1v1. Both of these competitions are created and maintained by the strategic community. The mtl uses 3 day boot and CL uses 3 days with loads of banked time.
The strategic community has had the time to figure out what works best for people in competitions and its far from a 1 day boot. Clan league went through a change to alter the boottimes to something better for the community. It's clear people, myself included, appreciate that they don't have to play every single day and that they have time to think about and possibly discuss their moves.

@Min34

I tend to play faster in much more casual games

▶ As everyone else, its the case for me too

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Imo it's weird to say "I take this game seriously so I take all my turns within 10 minutes and will play every day"

▶ How much time do you need? 20 minutes? 30 minutes? Even if you think longer, thinking more than 30 minutes every turn just to make a move should be a rare case (and possibly unhealthy). We are talking about S1V1 here, not a template you never played before...

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Keeping the 3 days was mainly in reference to the team ladders.

▶ As I said, we think the same way in team ladders, our disagreement was literally only about 1v1 ladder

Btw please lets limit our discussion to 2-3 sentence replies, most people will not read such a long thing anyway. Also, please don't talk about strategic community's opinion without even asking their opinion first. Even if literally every single one of them loves 3-day boot time, we were only talking about our opinion, not other's

Would the change in boot time also apply to seasonal ladder? Blog doesn’t say that it will change or explicitly say that it will stay

Is the trueskill rating like the Quickmatch rating? Or in how far is it different to the previous rating. I am a rookie in this rating stuff. Would someone mind to explain how to play the system the best ^^

Edited 5/5/2023 10:36:53

It's more similar to MTL (or chess), it's actually good

I’ll do my best to compare and contrast rating systems here but if any legit experts are lurking, please don’t hesitate to correct.

Elo: The “original” rating system that all other systems are compared to. Players start with a fixed rating (e.g. 1200) and have an implicit expected score against any given opponent based on a formula (i.e. when playing against a 1100 you’re expected to win 60% and when playing against a 1300 you’re expected to win 40%). Based on the actual outcome of a game, your rating will change according to the formula (e.g. +4/-6 against the 1100, +6/-4 against the 1300). If you achieve the expected result, you will remain at the same rating but if you over- or under-perform you will equilibrate to the “correct” rating accordingly.

Bayesian Elo: This is what the old/current ladder uses. Rather than treating opponent ratings as fixed at the time of the game, they are allowed to float and ratings are constantly recalculated based on what the opponent’s rating is *now* rather than what it was at the time of the game. In theory, this prevents smurf/alt accounts who are dramatically underrated from having an outsized impact on your own rating (e.g. you lose to a “brand new” 1200 player and your rating takes a big hit but when that “brand new” player wins 20 straight games the system corrects to account for the fact they were not actually a 1200. In practice, the system is confusing. WZ games are non-sequential and games played more than 3+ months ago are thrown out which creates some weird incentives and gamesmanship that are beyond the scope of this post.

TrueSkill: Elo systems use something called a k-factor which describes how much your rating will change based on the result of a game. Different games/sports will tweak this k-factor to subtly change the results specific to that game/sport. In chess for example, young and inexperienced players play with a higher k-factor to reflect that their ratings are unstable and once they hit a threshold of years or games, there’s a step change to a lower k-factor.

TrueSkill does this continuously by assigning both a rating and an “uncertainty factor” so a 0-0 player might have a rating of 1200 +/- 600 while a 10-10 player might have a rating of 1200 +/- 100. In addition, there are math tweaks (again beyond the scope of this post) to assign expected results and rating changes to a team of individuals who win/lose to another team of individuals.