https://www.warzone.com/SinglePlayer?PreviewMap=102748

Hey guys, so I went about remaking Troll's Europe back from 2009. I drew inspiration from Ra, but I wanted to make fundamentally the same map so that it could be swapped into the 3v3 ladder. Despite this I've had to change some connections, mainly Slovakia/Hungary/Poland.

So I need some help with cosmetics (I can't figure out why my shadow coastline seems to be bugging out when I upload the svg, I deleted some nodes and smoothed it out and didn't fix), maybe some suggestions to make it look better in general.

I need help with territory names, I went with a mixture of regional/prominent cities, but I'm not convinced that all of them are correct, and would like some help regarding spelling on some of them.

As for the merging of southern greece, denmark-sweden, and other odd fusions, I think I'd like to stay with them fused. This is because it's clear what borders what, and the territories are all able to house army numbers appropriately.

Any feedback is highly appreciated, and I hope you guys are just as excited as I am about giving one of our oldest maps a much needed face lift!

List of new connections:

Slask --> Trenciansky

Eszak-Magyarorszag --> Nitra

Eszak-Alfod --> Kosice

Țara Românească --> Republic of Moldova

Kyiv --> Kharkiv

List of removed connections:

Vysocina --> Wien

Edited 5/14/2023 18:48:58

Nice work.
The "Podlassie" region in Poland was misspelled in the old map, it's supposed to be Podlasie, with one 's'. It's a good opportunity to fix it.

I don't think that changing connections or territory layout in genral in such a legendary map is a way to go though, please reconsider this.

edit: and you added a typo of your own by turning Wielkopolska into Wiekopolska :)

Edited 5/13/2023 19:28:50

hype

legendary map -- altho i do agree with making connections as historical as possible

@Rento: I really don't want to but I'll show you something that's hard to overlook.





This is how I originally drew it in order to try to meet Troll's intention:



and this is how I ultimately decided to draw it:



In short, there's things that Troll drew correctly on his map, and then connected later. There's things that Troll connected correctly, but drew incorrectly. All of my decisions have been fixing things like that where it was inconsistent. Either it was drawn in a way that it should've had a connection and didn't, or it was connected, but not drawn correctly to convey it was connected. In these instances I decided to just redraw it based on real maps instead, and change the connections to be consistent. I've been lucky so far that the alterations are in areas that were already heavy brawl areas.

Thanks for the catch on polish territories, I'll update it right now!

Edited 5/13/2023 20:01:10

Incorrect name of Türkiye.

Fixed, are there any territories in Turkiye that would be better renamed? I struggled a little deciding what to go with.

Edited 5/13/2023 21:13:44

Nice work!

A few suggestions:

1) The yellow line between Sicily and Calabria is a little awkward: The yellow extends slightly further than necessary east of Calabria.

2) The connections in East Romaina also changed a little. Republic of Moldova-Walachia is now a connection while Dobrogea-Bacau is not (using your names).

3) I see you updated the names of quite a few territories. Is there a reason why Iceland did not get this treatment? Maybe there is no better way for South-East Glacier. But Noroausut and Norovestur just mean North-East and North-West repestively in Icelandic (Google told me this, but searching for them with quotation marks gives barely any results. These names are really non-standard.)

4) The connection between Croatia and Del-Afold is missing in your map. Is this intentional? The territories still touch.

5) Quite a few centres of bonuses are a bit oddly positioned. Some are placed quite off-center in their bonus. In particular, Tyrol, Montenegro, Herzegovnia, Donetsk and Trenciansky hit the border unnecesarrily when using example armies. I am also unsure whether Fizzer will allow this map as the numbers don't fit in all the territories (which is a rule introduced after Trol''s Europe was published).

6) Herzegovnia has a strange spelling. Herzegovina is a lot more common. Is this a typo?

7) Rhone Alpes uses an hyphen and a ô inestead of o, Normadie should be Normandie, Franche-Comte is often spelled Franche-Comté. I would ask some French player to check the spellings of these names

Edited 5/13/2023 21:52:15

In Germany most territories are written in German Names (Nordrhein-Westfalen [North Rhine-Westphalia], Niedersachsen [Lower Saxony], Bayern [Bavaria], Sachsen [Saxony], Sachsen-Anhalt [Saxony-Anhalt])

and others in English Names or mixtures (Rhineland-Pfalz [Rheinland-Pfalz] Baden-Wurttemberg [Baden-Württemberg], Thuringen [Thüringen/Thuringia] )

Ah... not sure myself what language is used on Trolls map. very mixed
Just look here for english names
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany

Probably that should be made consistent.

I am no Bayer, Thüringer or Sachse. But I never use "Freistaat" either. (I knew Bayern is special, but the other 2 i didnt even know)

Edited 5/13/2023 22:59:01

Regarding Spain, I would say that the names Basque Country and Barcelona are not correct.

I think Nothern Spain is more accurate (but not perfect) instead of Basque Country.

For the region called Barcelona, it is more difficult, but calling it a city or province and not a region feels bad... My suggestion is to name it Catalan Countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Countries

Nice work!

Edited 5/13/2023 22:22:32

id scratch the 'Freistaat' in Germany.
Literally no one is getting taught that anyway.

I think you have it easier to write it all in English names. Not only u but also the players that are discussing stretegies and try to say the territory names.

4) The connection between Croatia and Del-Afold is missing in your map. Is this intentional? The territories still touch.

I researched this ^. They are not supposed to connect. It looks like they do but are not supposed to. The border needs to be tweaked to the east just a skosh. I did a little editing and it should look like the pic below.

---Not only u but also the players that are discussing stretegies and try to say the territory names.

i mean people who still dont link territories dont deserver to play anyhow

Good catch at Del-Afold and Croatia! I'm gonna fix that before I respond to the other stuff, the territory positions and connections are higher priority to me.

Whether some territory names use the local language or the English translation seems random. In Switzerland I would change "Graubunden" to "Graubünden".

https://www.warzone.com/Map/25244-Europe-remake

What is wrong with Farah’s remake? He did a good job cleaning up the original already from the looks of it

It looks nice. I will say, it's up to you to decide how you want to deal with the "broken" connections on the old Troll map, but if you want it to be able to switch immediately in for the existing Europe map, the most important thing is to have the exact same connections and bonus structure.

It might be alright to change some of the connections, but you may have difficulty getting full buy-in on switching maps then. When AI, Lionheart, and I worked together to redesign the Numenor map, we redrew some connections, but these were almost all in areas of the map that are less significant to gameplay (and besides people aren't as deeply attached to the nuances of connections in that map as they are in Troll's Europe map).

Removing the double border from Croatia to Hungary might be geographically more correct, but it will have a significant impact on gameplay to remove it. Changing connections around Lower Austria seem slightly less impactful, but it will still have a big impact in ways that changing connections in Turkey or even Sweden wouldn't.

1) The yellow line between Sicily and Calabria is a little awkward: The yellow extends slightly further than necessary east of Calabria.

Good catch, fixed.

2) The connections in East Romaina also changed a little. Republic of Moldova-Walachia is now a connection while Dobrogea-Bacau is not (using your names).

I didn't realize this at first because even though I drew with Troll's map as a reference I assumed the intention was to have them connect like that. Maps back me up, and his visual was confusing so I think this is better.

3) I see you updated the names of quite a few territories. Is there a reason why Iceland did not get this treatment? Maybe there is no better way for South-East Glacier. But Noroausut and Norovestur just mean North-East and North-West repestively in Icelandic (Google told me this, but searching for them with quotation marks gives barely any results. These names are really non-standard.)

Due to my ignorance I didn't realize that's what the names meant. I'll research Iceland soon and come up with better names.

5) Quite a few centres of bonuses are a bit oddly positioned. Some are placed quite off-center in their bonus. In particular, Tyrol, Montenegro, Herzegovnia, Donetsk and Trenciansky hit the border unnecesarrily when using example armies. I am also unsure whether Fizzer will allow this map as the numbers don't fit in all the territories (which is a rule introduced after Trol''s Europe was published).

Fixed those listed here. I mean, if he denies it I'll just scale the map slightly bigger and it should be fine.

6) Herzegovnia has a strange spelling. Herzegovina is a lot more common. Is this a typo?

Typo. Corrected.

7) Rhone Alpes uses an hyphen and a ô inestead of o, Normadie should be Normandie, Franche-Comte is often spelled Franche-Comté. I would ask some French player to check the spellings of these names

Corrected these, thanks.


@LF I plan to use the native country's spelling over English. Half of Troll's names followed this convention and I plan to just make that as consistent as I can, which is why I need help doing it. As for Freistaat, maybe it was used because this map was made in 2009? Regardless I'll drop it for now. The three you pointed out (Baden, Nordrhein, Rheinland..) were the names Timi told me to use.

@We Ride! Thanks, I've updated the Spanish territories.

Edited 5/14/2023 00:08:07

Whether some territory names use the local language or the English translation seems random. In Switzerland I would change "Graubunden" to "Graubünden".

Yup! Trying to fix this, but I'm not exactly great with other languages unless it's English/French/Spanish.

I fixed Graubünden though.

https://www.warzone.com/Map/25244-Europe-remake

What is wrong with Farah’s remake? He did a good job cleaning up the original already from the looks of it

Gonna be honest Buns, I didn't realize Farah did a remake until I watched a new ladder game today. It made me question why I spent 3 days making this. Oh well.

Beren and I discussed on discord, but I'm firm on changing the borders to eliminate ambiguity. A big problem with Troll's map is that there were ambiguous borders in a lot of different areas. It was either keep the connections the same and redraw the border to match the connections, or it was draw it Troll's way (which used a real map to sketch with, of this I'm confident as I proofcheck) and eliminate the bad connections he made when he released the map on this site.

I ultimately decided to draw it as correctly as possible and change some connections. So far I think I've changed.. 5. Maybe 6. Regardless, I think this will be better for new players to the game to understand, even if this map is not selected to replace the current ladder map.

Due to my ignorance I didn't realize that's what the names meant. I'll research Iceland soon and come up with better names.

I have now knowledged myself, the official region names are Nordhurland Vestra, Nordhurland Eystra, Austurland, and Sudhurland, which I understand are just directions with land tied to them. However, this is what Iceland calls their regions and so be it.