"Also the past is irrelevant to this discussion we're discussing the present situation in the middle east not shit that happened in europe 400 years ago."
I must say, 674 is on point for most of this discussion.

And really, give me one Western/European Christian nation during the Middle Age having this degree of tolerance that existed in the Muslim world?

Lithuania.

I respectfully disagree Conservative. Islam is not beneficial to any nation. In India, it causes divide and strife. In the Middle East, genocide, persecution, strife and poverty. In Europe, crime and rape (Cologne). Some Muslims are good people, but the religion goes against Western Liberal values

In the Middle East it caused huge growth economically and scientifically. (About Islam).

Edited 1/14/2016 22:22:30

That's fair 674. I think people just don't like how you use goyyim, and try to constantly get a rise. But you make valid points in this arguement

General I see where your point is coming from, and Islam isn't exactly known for its positive effects. I mean, you don't drive down the road in Iran and see signs saying ' Allah loves you!' Or ' please join The Allah blessed missionary fund! '. But we must respect there right to practice the religion they want. Funny enough, by measure of violence, Islam today is where Christianity was at the time of Columbus

Edited 1/14/2016 22:24:52

The trade and science was boosted primarily by the Arabs. The Arabs would have not invaded and spread without proper impetus.

No, they are not. Did people in concentration camps get money

Funny you talk about this, ever heard of the Ghetto of Warsaw? If not I advise you to watch the Pianist (a very good movie). There Polish and Central European Jews were imprisoned in an entire section of the city of Warsaw, they could not escape from there, and despite their dire and miserable situation they could still live barely with people working, and getting money (or something similar like bartering food for services etc). This is exactly the same situation nowadays in Gaza.

to build tunnels so they could blow up civilians?

Blowing up civilians? ahah they first try to reach the Israeli army, and the main use of these tunnels is just to escape the living hell that is Gaza nowadays due to this inhuman blockade.

Did people in concentratin camps launch rocket attacks on Berlin?

No they were killed, Nazi were more radical in their means, but well can we compare the Nazis and the State of Israel? Of course not.

Did people in concentration camps have an extremist militia running the camps?

what do you mean by extremist? In ghettos indeed you had a kind of resistance, desperate resistance (people in Gaza are also desperate), and they fought the Nazis before this very ghetto was annihilated.

Did people in concentration camps have relative automomy? You might be able to get away with ghettoes, but saying Gaza ia a concentration camp is pure emotional fantasy.

Ghetto yes, but I was referring to the Warsaw ghetto under the Nazis, not the Venetian ghetto or any other European ghettos you could find, where the Jews lived with a relative autonomy and peace for hundreds of years, the Ghetto of Warsaw during the German occupation was a bloody hell. And Gaza despite being better, is also a bloody hell, with people not able to escape, people suffering of starving and misery. This is why extremism is rising in Gaza, you would also notice Hamas is not predominant in some other parts of Palestine (like Cisjordan and see Fatah) again if Extremist Hamas won the elections you have the very reasons there in Gaza.

Edited 1/14/2016 22:28:57

by measure of violence, Islam today is where Christianity was at the time of Columbus

No, Muslims have not killed about 40 million people through diesease and conflict.

Personally the idea of the Israel Palestine conflict stems from one thing: Israel was founded on the idea that it would be a homeland for the Jews.

Because of that concept, it gives neighboring countries a reason to hate it, Palestinians a right to proclaim independence, and Israel an excuse to settle that land. It was created as a Jewish homeland. And I'm speaking as a Jew.

The solution is not a Jewish and Arab state in the area. What is needed is one state. A country made to not cater specifically towards either side in the conflict. A nation that respects the wish of both Palestinian and Israelis, but shows no privilege or prejudice against either. Maybe, with that, we can have peace in an area which has been covered by media nonstop for violence between these two groups.

The Arabs went from a primarily nomadic people to a empire because of a reason, not just because.

Also , no thread can get this many replies so quickly without being a Israel-Palestine related thing.

"In the Middle East it caused huge growth economically and scientifically. (About Islam)."
Um, the Middle East, especially Persia and Byzantium, was incredibly advanced scientifically. The Muslim Arabs were worthless. Without Greek, Roman, Persian and Indian texts already existing, they would have done nothing. They simply benefited from their predecessors. Name one significant, world-changing acheivement of Muslims in scientific fields. Arabic numerals? Actually Indian.

"No, Muslims have not killed about 40 million people through diesease and conflict."
To be fair, a lot of the disease stuff was accidental

About Lithuania Major you were referring to the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth? If yes, this was well after the Middle Age, but if you want an example of a tolerant society during the middle age in Europe (if we can consider it in Europe), you could talk about the Khanate of the Khazars in nowadays south Russia and Ukraine, but again they were not really part of the Western Civilization.

"Islam isn't the reason they formed an empire." It sorta is. It gave the previously disunited Arab tribes a common political doctrine to follow, and a reason to wage constant war happily.

Koala, you refute all my points with examples ghettoes.
"Funny you talk about this, ever heard of the Ghetto of Warsaw?"
"In ghettos indeed you had a kind of resistance,"
"I was referring to the Warsaw ghetto"
You said concentration camps, not ghettoes. They aren't the same.

"the main use of these tunnels is just to escape the living hell that is Gaza "
WRONG, Hamas uses them to launch terror attacks. They don't just let civilians hop on in. Try again.

"Also , no thread can get this many replies so quickly without being a Israel-Palestine related thing."
Finally something we can agree on

Name one significant, world-changing acheivement of Muslims in scientific fields. Arabic numerals? Actually Indian.

Well despite having greatly accelerated, developed or initiated many modern scientific fields such as Medicine, Philosophy, Geography, Astronomy or Mathematics, one of their greatest achievement is Algebra: we can say that Persian and Arabic mathematicians developed modern algebraic methods thanks to a much higher degree of sophistication.

It is no secret many scientific or technical words are from Arabic: Algebra, Algorithm, Alchemy, Chemistry, Alkaline, azimuth, adobe (or hundred of Astronomic terms such as: Altair, Betelgeuse, Deneb, Fomalhaut, Rigel, Vega, etc.)


Again your one sided view of the Muslim World is ridiculous GeneralPE.

It's obvious both sides share some guilt but In the end, the Israeli state is justified in my opinion. Gaza is just a trouble spot. The west bank should get independence