"Fizzer Round" (FR):

SR as the base rounding tool, but Fizzer manually adjusts some of the outcomes. For example, 3v2 always leaves behind 1, 4v2 always leaves behind 2.

I tried tinkering with attack and defense ratios with SR. But to get more friction for lighter attacks causes way too much friction for heavier attacks. My conclusion: a new system (FR) is needed to apply the math in a way that better suits certain templates.

I make many templates. Sometimes WR 0% better suits the map and settings; sometimes SR is better; sometimes neither is ideal. Add FR and there would be more good templates.

Another Option (instead of FR):

If we can manually adjust bonus values on maps (and now with commanders we can leave behind 0 army on occupied territory), we should also be able to adjust SR leftovers. Call it "Manual SR (MSR).

Highlight it in settings whenever it is used, so people are aware when they join the game. Having a bonus means you have deployable income. Leftovers function as hidden income or -- in the case of the worst possible outcomes with WR -- negative income (ie, you have to deploy more the next turn and have less to deploy elsewhere).

MSR or FR would make me like the certainty of SR without feeling the template's dynamics have too little friction.

Edited 2/16/2016 01:56:08

@Ragnarok so you are saying that I MIGHT be 1/5th wrong? Good enough for you I guess...

I really love all of Strategos' posts so far. They are spot on.

Why would you might be wrong? I told you where you can find the evidence.
Anyway, there is no 1/5 right or wrong. Either you are or you aren't.
Even if those players are better individually than the current top 10, it does not necessarily mean they would outperform them in ladder.
I'll use Krzychu as an exemple. He beats me 7/10 games in the current 1v1 ladder template, but if you look at our rating, you'll see it's quite different. So unless your A team is going to join and prove you're right, you should not debunk those who are in the top now.

@Ragnarok: Almost nobody who has a idea of complex warlight strategy would ever join a ladder like this ( excluding Acl, Odin and some others ). We will never found out if they beat you because nobody of them (including me) is interesting in wasting their time.

Gui: ChrisCMU mentioned in another thread that kill rate at 75% gives in 0% SR leftovers of 1. that it might solve the issue.

i tried tinkering with attack and defense ratios with sr. to get more friction for lighter attacks causes way too much friction for heavier attacks. my conclusion: a new system (fr) is needed to apply the math in a way that better suits certain templates.
@ps You need to read what others put completely -_-. Gui is aware of that possibility, but 75% might give 1 leftovers, but it also changes attacks on general during exchanges, which is not what Gui wants I think.

75% isn't so far off of 70%. I think you might be able to come up with a rebalancing that is still fun to play. It will require adjusting the attack rate to make typical exchanges more 'fair'. I bet it would also require adjusting bonus values, base income, starting armies, and reinforce card amounts to get it 'just right', without too much 'friction'.

Remember that the current (and old) settings were honed after a long time of playing, so it will not be very simple to get things 'just right' after only making one or two adjustments to the settings. It will probably require some play-testing with a variety of slightly different settings to get into a 'sweet spot' where 4v2 leaves 2 and 3v2 leaves 1, and everything else still feels just about right.

It is true that some small changes could make things much more customizable, which would allow anyone to *just* change those two outcomes without affecting anything else. I doubt it'll happen soon, though. Fizzer seems to be trying to make settings simpler (for newbies), and avoiding suggestions which would make them more complex (for enthusiasts). (I think that's a mistake, but it is what it is.)

Edited 2/16/2016 00:35:56

Benjamin, do you have any proof besides your opinion that these guys would be top 10 in this template? If you look at HHH's coin games records he can easily prove you wrong.

Your ladder records / holding tops spots in both ladders means nothing. Timinator's current 1987 rating (https://www.warlight.net/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=855) wipes your but. You have to give them legends 300 grace points (the amount of grace points Benjamin gives himself) due to them not focusing on shitty settings so 1987 + 300 = 2287 and Timinator is the real current number 1.

YouMustBeKidding me. Timi has 2 unexpired games you complete idiot.

I never said ever I should have 300 points more than I do now. I am about 1600 (Peak), with shitty expired games. Call me in 3 months when I break 1700-1800 and shove it your bot's asshole.

Edited 2/16/2016 01:01:58

"Gui: ChrisCMU mentioned in another thread that kill rate at 75% gives in 0% SR leftovers of 1. that it might solve the issue."

Attack ratio 65%, defense ratio 72.5%:

2v1: 1
3v2: 2!
4v2: 3!
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

------

Attack ratio kills 70%, defense ratio kills 75%, SR 0%:

Leftovers:
2v1: 1
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
Xv2: You always lose 2 when attacking.
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

But, in larger attacks, the attacker doesn't lose as much. And less is needed to take a terrirory with 5+.

----------

Attack ratio 67%, defense ratio 75%:

Leftovers:
2v1: 1
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
Xv2: You always lose 2 when attacking.
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

But 4v3, 7v5, 9v6, 10v7, 12v8, 14v9 still work.

-----------

Attack ratio 65%, defense ratio 75%:

2v1: 1
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

But 4v3, 7v5, 9v6, 10v7, 12v8, 14v9 still work.

-----------

Attack ratio 65%, defense ratio 76%:

2v1: 1
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
5v3: 3
6v4: 3


But 4v3, 7v5, 9v6, 10v7, 12v8, 14v9 still work.

---------

Attack ratio 65%, defense ratio 77%:

2v1: 1
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

But 4v3, 7v5, 9v6, 10v7, 12v8, 14v9 still work.

https://www.warlight.net/SinglePlayer?TemplateID=806712 <-- single player template if you want to play around

If 3v2s work all the time, ideal leftovers (for more friction) and minimum requirements to take a territory:

LEFTOVERS
3v2: 1
4v2: 2
5v3: 3
6v4: 3

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS TO TAKE A TERRITORY
To kill 2 you need 3.
To kill 3 you need 5.
To kill 4 you need 6.
To kill 5 you need 8.
To kill 6 you need 10.
To kill 7 you need 11.
To kill 8 you need 13.
To kill 9 you need 15.

Without creating FR or MSR (above post), I can't see how we can create more friction (vis-a-vis our neutral attacks) while still maintaining the minimum requirements we expect from our attacks on enemy armies of 3+.

Another option might be to tinker with attack luck of 65%-70% and defense luck of 70-80% AFTER adjusting the SR luck variable (between 0% SR and 16% SR).

But players like the "no luck" aspect of 0% SR, so this doesn't seem like a good option.

Since this thread is about the ladders and not about me arguing with a 13 year old fanboy I won't reply to Benjamin628's insults.

14*

"Just Fact:

Sze
Gnuff
JSA
Piggy
MoD
Timi
Impaler
Dunga
Beezlbu
Latnox

Would be the top 10 if they all joined the ladder. You could stall as much as you want (and do), these would beat the top 5 for sure.

Unfortunately 70-90% of these people would/do think that the old template is better.
"

Gnuff is the ultimate staller/ladder abuser. He's not that great at strat 1v1 IMO, and Impaller sucks by todays standards. He'd be top 50 at best.

"Just Fact:

Sze
Gnuff
JSA
Piggy
MoD
Timi
Impaler
Dunga
Beezlbu
Latnox

Would be the top 10 if they all joined the ladder. You could stall as much as you want (and do), these would beat the top 5 for sure.

liol. Sze prefer SR, jsa is descent player like me, but we arent anything near top(he may think different, but i know true). Mod annoying kid like you. Impaler was super nice girl, in nights i dreamt her nude. Then dunga played warlight, you played with dolls. Belzebub wasnt very good. Stop talking nonsense during your first menstruations, kid. You know nothing

Edited 2/16/2016 03:32:42

Haha. Remember when HHH was limited to :) :/ and :( ? Now, everything he says is an attempt to make people feel :(

My Favorite Part Of Chutes And Ladders Is When Your Opponent Lands On The Chute That Takes Player From High Point Back To Very Low Point. My Brother Did This And Got So Mad He Threw Board Threw A Window And Broke It In My Home In Cincinnati.

Cool posts from Strategos.

Personally I'm not a big fan of 1v1, except on templates that have rarely been used. So I won't really weigh in on 1v1. For 2v2, SR ME seems fun so far; I'd like to see some more games played on it and see how quickly players get bored of it before adding it as a 2v2 ladder template. Szeurope would be a decent 2v2 ladder template also. Guiroma would also work, although I don't like Guiroma so I wouldn't support it! 3v3 Europe depends on what we are going for. With WR and experienced 3v3 players, the games are quite boring for me, and not a lot of fun. I personally would prefer SR for sure. Also, for a ladder, 3v3 WR requires too much luck (Ireland/Iceland ftb with 1 pick). 100% agree with needing Seasonal templates to be voted on. Also in agreement that the realtime ladder needs some changes.

top players that like sr like it for its certainty. why can't we keep the certainty but increase the friction?

i would like sr 0% so much more if 3v2s always left behind 1 army and 4v2s always left behind 2 armies. 2 leftovers (3v2) and 3 leftovers (4v2) are the maximum lertovers in 0% wr, they should not be the norm. the mean between two extremes should be the norm.

I love Strategos' idea here. Expansion is too cheap in SR. Luck plays too big of a factor in WR. What if we could balance these a bit by using Gui's idea?

Benjamin, I wouldn't include guys like The Impaller who have been inactive for so long, or guys like me who don't care for Strategic 1v1. Better to include the best recent Strategic 1v1 players who also much prefer the old template like Strategos, QB, mod, motd, Timinator, etc. You can't use players like the Impaller and dunga as examples saying they would be more likely to play WR without asking them.

My biggest issue is the fact that there is only one realtime ladder, and it's not very good. I would be far more likely to play a realtime ladder than a multiday one. Multidays get boring quickly for me, while real times require less than an hour to play a high level game, meaning they remain more interesting. Honestly, I believe my gameplay actually drops on multiday games, especially on SR templates, because I stop caring to count on multiday games and just make instinctive turns. Instinctive turns can work in WR, but not as much on SR.

3v3 ladder is perfect if you are not overworked or if you aren't a good student. when i was a university student i never spent time playing games. I was reading and studying as much as I could. now I am overworked. i don't have time or patience for bean counting. each time i joined the 3v3 ladder my work or life would force me to make a decision: waste time on a template i don't enjoy playing or focus on what is more important to my job or life.

I agree with this 100%. As a student, I've really cut back on my warlight time and been using that time to study instead. Also working a part time job eats up my time. With alts, I could make great turns in the 3v3 ladder in 10 minutes or less. With teammates, it takes much more time. I must explain my moves to them, and also explain what they should do and why. Even if I was playing with a top 3v3 Europe player, we may have different ideas which we must discuss. If we would each go with our own ideas, it would work out worse than either one of our ideas individually usually. I think this is the issue with multiday team games period though. On WR, it is simpler to make quick turns, but no more enjoyable to me. I believe realtime needs to become bigger in competitive warlight.


jsa is descent player like me
Maybe you're descending, but I'm on my way up.