Pipe down, half of what you're saying is just buzzwords - government and socialism isn't logic? What is that even supposed to mean? It might not be smart, but it's logic.

3/4 your agruments are based on a claim yet to be definitively proven.

But they obey their book, and in their book, there shall be no compulsion in faith, and as a result, most Islamic countries have a low murder rate, relative to their living standards, and I don't think there's any Islamic country not at war that has a higher murder rate than America, which is much more developed and Christian.

America is relatively low as far as murder rates go (ranked 114 of around 200 countries with 3 homicides per 100K people), and in terms of international comparisons, a lot of Islamic nations are higher:

Turkmenistan: 12/100K
Mali: 11/100K
Gambia: 9/100K
Chad: 9/100K
Kyrgyzstan: 9/100K
Senegal: 8/100K
Comoros: 8/100K
Iraq: 8/100K
Kazakhstan: 7/100K
Pakistan: 7/100K
Palestine: 7/100K
Djibouti: 7/100K
Sudan: 6/100K
Afghanistan: 6/100K

^And those are just the ones with more than 2x as many as america

Now, I'm not you; I'm not trying to say how muslims are so horrible and they all kill each other. All sorts of nations place everywhere on the list and their faith has very little to do with it.

Socialism and government isn't logical.

Ok , there are some bandit folk, hire some guys to defend your land , but those guards shouldn't be able to take your stuff at will, and decide what you should do as a person. And they especially shouldn't be able to take your son and make him a guard and send him to fight bandits.

Mali, Iraq, Pakistan, Palestine, Sudan, Afghanistan are at war, or has serious "conflict", and I was not counting light Islamic countries, just the more devout ones, so Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan would be off the list immediately (about 95% Middle Asian+Azeri Muslims believe in Darwinian evolution, not the Islamic creationism, the highest of any site), also, in Africa south of Sahara, there is loads of mix between tribal faiths and Islam, I'd be sceptic to count them, too.

I think I might have just missed one, Iran, but it's murder rate (39 bem) is not much higher than America's (38).

Now, I'm not you; I'm not trying to say how muslims are so horrible and they all kill each other.

Do I say that?

All sorts of nations place everywhere on the list and their faith has very little to do with it.

My point is, faith has little to do with anything, as long as it's moderate.

Edited 5/4/2016 22:28:20

http://youtu.be/rq6beOPiCzA


Just going to drop this here.

I don't remember the last time I argued a point your made either. I've lost sooooo much interest in talking politics on this forum. I make some stupid comments and provoke right wingers by saying hard-left thing sometimes, but the last time I legitimately decided to say "I'm going to go, argue somebody's point(s), and try to win on said points", is once with Juq over Scottish Independence (something I care about, not whether socialism is logical or not - is anything logical? you're just bringing in metaphysics here, and I don't care whether you think socialism is logical or not because obviously I can't get you to change your opinion: however I'm sure you'll go through another phase sometime, however I can't predict what that phase will be)

Warlight (subjective):

Community (beneficial: clan league, RPCL, helping with community and stuff) > playing game (diplos, tactic, strat) > chat (social chat w/ clanmates and stuff) > shitposting (lololol I enjoy this) > politics (don't have much of an interest to talk that here much more)

The main problem with picking arguments on WL is that there is no proper way to argue/debate. There's no structure / no rules. Anything goes, and because of this people decide to tarnish the word "debate" by calling something as stupid as a WL political disagreement/spat a "debate".

Please, if you care so much about politics are there not people like, in your community to talk about this to? Take up debate, or something, then when you're done you won't care to annoy people on the forum with it because I'd much rather an OT full of shitposts than full of political talk (a healthy balance outweighs both, however)

Ox you're Scottish, nobody cares for your opinion. Take Robert The Bruce, Macbeth and Willaim Wallace and drown in Irn Bru.

Socialism and government isn't logical.

Ok , there are some bandit folk, hire some guys to defend your land , but those guards shouldn't be able to take your stuff at will, and decide what you should do as a person. And they especially shouldn't be able to take your son and make him a guard and send him to fight bandits.

A flawed thought can still be logic, and government and socialism are definitely logic.

Do I say that?

You said something similar about american christians.

Mali, Iraq, Pakistan, Palestine, Sudan, Afghanistan are at war, or has serious "conflict",

Most/all are conflicts motivated by Islam, so your point of

they obey their book, and in their book, there shall be no compulsion in faith, and as a result, most Islamic countries have a low murder rate

Doesn't really hold any water in that case.

and I was not counting light Islamic countries, just the more devout ones, so Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan would be off the list immediately (about 95% Middle Asian+Azeri Muslims believe in Darwinian evolution, not the Islamic creationism, the highest of any site), also, in Africa south of Sahara, there is loads of mix between tribal faiths and Islam, I'd be sceptic to count them, too.

There are numerous denominations within islam, and many wouldn't consider followers of other denominations to be "devout". So what?

Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.... 4 threads about TRUMP in one SINGLE DAY! Gosh, this is getting very boring. Move on guys.

btw just to make it clear before someone answers me: TL;DR.

You said something similar about american christians.

Americans, statistically, are a more murderous folk, and there's probably one faith that murders more on average than others, but I haven't said anything about that, what I did say was that some Christians do kill folk for the sake of their faith just as Muslims do.

Most/all are conflicts motivated by Islam, so your point of

they obey their book, and in their book, there shall be no compulsion in faith, and as a result, most Islamic countries have a low murder rate

Doesn't really hold any water in that case.

It's motivated by anti-Americanism, from the many wars there are. Out of all the Islamic extremist conflicts, there are few brought about without American or Israeli waging war on the land, first.

Violent Islamic extremism where America warred/war:
*Afghanistan
*Iraq
*Libya
*Pakistan
*Somalia
*Syria
*West Site
*Yemen

Violent Islamic extremism where it hasn't warred:
*Sinai (Israel)

And the Reading does permit violence in self-defence, and eye-for-an-eye warfare.

There are numerous denominations within islam, and many wouldn't consider followers of other denominations to be "devout". So what?

I think we can agree that if all the theologians of a faith except a certain small minority say that this minority is not part of the faith, then it's not. In Catholicism, the Roman Father can just say "Ha ha, you're not Catholic anymore, now." and be done with it.

Americans, statistically, are a more murderous folk, and there's probably one faith that murders more on average than others, but I haven't said anything about that, what I did say was that some Christians do kill folk for the sake of their faith just as Muslims do.

America is not more murderous, rather around average and slightly better than average. That is, american has a lower murder rate than 57% of the world.

And it's not just that america commits a few less murders than the nations on the top of the list. Compared to the nation with the most murders, america has around 30 times less murders than honduras. and compared to some of the islamic nations I mentioned, america commits 2-4 times less murders.

It's motivated by anti-Americanism, from the many wars there are. Out of all the Islamic extremist conflicts, there are few brought about without American or Israeli waging war on the land, first.

Violent Islamic extremism where America warred/war:
*Afghanistan
*Iraq
*Libya
*Pakistan
*Somalia
*Syria
*West Site
*Yemen

The taliban was causing mischief in afghanistan long before america invaded, and they had set up a theocratic state there in fact, which is at least partly why the invasion happened.

While it's true that islamic extremism has only been prevalent in iraq since the 2003 invasion, Ba'athist iraq wasn't a terribly nice place either.

Pakistan has been rife with extremist muslims ever since it's founding, when the muslim indians in the british raj refused to live with the hindus; Which is what created "Pakistan" in the first place.

The US has never heavily intervened in somalia.

It's hard to argue that the US is responsible for the war in syria. while we have been supplying rebels with supplies and such, the civil war was caused by the oppressive assad regime.

Everyone supporting either side in the yemeni civil war are other muslim nations and extremist groups. All the US is doing is airstriking al-queda.

The situation in palestine is caused specifically by muslim palestinians having problems with jewish folks migrating there. It's hard to imagine that they would have any sort of problem with say jordanian muslims migrating.

^ Make America WACOWAPOKAZOOO again!

muslims do more terrorism

therefore we gotta FOCUS more on them

it common logic

Honduras is a particularly bad example since they had a coup backed by the US that has made things awful.

America is not more murderous, rather around average and slightly better than average. That is, american has a lower murder rate than 57% of the world.

Murderous for its development, meant to say, but you should weigh this by population. Who cares if Montenegro has a high murder rate, noone lives there, and it would be misleading to count it as 3% the world when it has 0% the folk.

Without going into detail, a quick check. China+India+America+Indonesia+Brazil+Bangladesh+Russia = ~50% world population. Keep in mind America is the best developed of those countries.

The weighted average between those countries (pretending they hold 100% world population) is about 3.7.

And it's not just that america commits a few less murders than the nations on the top of the list. Compared to the nation with the most murders, america has around 30 times less murders than honduras. and compared to some of the islamic nations I mentioned, america commits 2-4 times less murders.

America doesn't have a war on its land, nor economic collapse, and great drug problems (not as great as Russia, anyway). Out of all countries at the same living tier as America, only Bahamas has a greater murder rate; Germany, France, Hanguk, they all've lower.

The taliban was causing mischief in afghanistan long before america invaded, and they had set up a theocratic state there in fact, which is at least partly why the invasion happened.

Yes, Russia invaded Afghanistan first, but America lengthened the war, which is why they're still here today, and Afghanistan hasn't had a day of peace since 1978.

Also, theocracy has 0 things to do with why America did invade countries, rid your corrupting patriotism here. America doesn't do what's right, America does what America wants, doing in selfish ways like all governments do. Also, America helped these same Students in the Soviet-Afghan war, with supplies (they were still part of the Holy Warriors, then).

While it's true that islamic extremism has only been prevalent in iraq since the 2003 invasion, Ba'athist iraq wasn't a terribly nice place either.

It was far better. There was much less violence, mainly in Kurdistan by Kurd nationalists, women could vote and serve in the military forces, Sunni, Shia, and Christians all worked in government, but once the government was undone, the Shia theocrats, Sunni Islamists, and Kurd nationalists let loose.

It did not have national democracy, but that is a rare thing to be found, in which few countries (like America) can boast of.

Pakistan has been rife with extremist muslims ever since it's founding, when the muslim indians in the british raj refused to live with the hindus; Which is what created "Pakistan" in the first place.

This is very one-sided. The bloody and pointless border wars were brought about by angry Hindus and Muslims, and wasn't really fought about faith, but more anger to their nations. Then there was the Balochistan wars. Then, lastly, in 2004, the Base invaded Pakistan, and then, only in 2004, violent Islamic extremism began in Pakistan. Very soon after the Base came to Pakistan, America found an excuse to bomb Pakistan, and now Pakistan is getting ruined, too.

The US has never heavily intervened in somalia.

There were different phases in the war, now it is intervening quite a bit, and it definitely did in 2006, which began the violent extremism in Somalia.

It's hard to argue that the US is responsible for the war in syria. while we have been supplying rebels with supplies and such, the civil war was caused by the oppressive assad regime.

The revolution was not caused by the Syrian Arab Republic, but well, revolters, and likely foreign agents. Then America invaded Iraq, The Base and later Mashriq got in Iraq, and then they invaded to the already in-war SAR. Anyhow, America is disponsible for lenghtening this war, at any rate.

Everyone supporting either side in the yemeni civil war are other muslim nations and extremist groups. All the US is doing is airstriking al-queda.

America is doing more than that, and has been doing more than that for a while. I think the count was, in 2014, mind you, about 2,100 folk died in Yemen, almost all civilians, from American airstrikes? That's unforgivable.

The situation in palestine is caused specifically by muslim palestinians having problems with jewish folks migrating there. It's hard to imagine that they would have any sort of problem with say jordanian muslims migrating.

Didn't talk about Palestine, but anyhow, the Israeli government started that, not America. Systemic deportation of Palestinians was the least of it, everyone realised, when Israel began to bomb Palestine.

Murderous for its development, meant to say, but you should weigh this by population. Who cares if Montenegro has a high murder rate, noone lives there, and it would be misleading to count it as 3% the world when it has 0% the folk.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, nobody is claiming that montenegro makes up any significant part of the world population.

America doesn't have a war on its land, nor economic collapse, and great drug problems (not as great as Russia, anyway). Out of all countries at the same living tier as America, only Bahamas has a greater murder rate; Germany, France, Hanguk, they all've lower.

While it is true that the US has a higher murder rate than most other developed nations, the numbers are so small that it hardly matters. Can it really be said that a country is worse because out of 100K people 3 get murdered rather than 1 or 2?

Also, theocracy has 0 things to do with why America did invade countries, rid your corrupting patriotism here. America doesn't do what's right, America does what America wants, doing in selfish ways like all governments do. Also, America helped these same Students in the Soviet-Afghan war, with supplies (they were still part of the Holy Warriors, then).

I'm not being patriotic. It's a logical deduction that the taliban was suspected to be hiding al-queda due to how crazy islamic extremist they were.

It was far better. There was much less violence, mainly in Kurdistan by Kurd nationalists, women could vote and serve in the military forces, Sunni, Shia, and Christians all worked in government, but once the government was undone, the Shia theocrats, Sunni Islamists, and Kurd nationalists let loose.

It did not have national democracy, but that is a rare thing to be found, in which few countries (like America) can boast of.

The factions you mentioned weren't magically created through a US invasion of iraq. They already existed, granted held together by a nutcase dictator. When you have different groups all held together by a crazy dictator, chaos will erupt, the US invasion just sort of set the stage for it to do so.

This is very one-sided. The bloody and pointless border wars were brought about by angry Hindus and Muslims, and wasn't really fought about faith, but more anger to their nations.

I'm not sure what exactly you think those nations are based off of, but they were based off of hindu and muslim religious grouping. This is why Bangladesh was included as "east pakistan" despite being pretty different from actual pakistan. The only similarity it shared was that it was majority muslim.

There were different phases in the war, now it is intervening quite a bit, and it definitely did in 2006, which began the violent extremism in Somalia.

This is the only intervention I could find, and it was a UN one, not specifically a US one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Somalia_II

America is doing more than that, and has been doing more than that for a while. I think the count was, in 2014, mind you, about 2,100 folk died in Yemen, almost all civilians, from American airstrikes? That's unforgivable.

Couldn't find any sources on those numbers, but from what I can find around 3100 civillians have been killed in the war so far, and I highly doubt that 2/3rds of them are from american airstrikes.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, nobody is claiming that montenegro makes up any significant part of the world population.

You're overcounting Montenegro and undercounting China by putting the same weight to them.

While it is true that the US has a higher murder rate than most other developed nations, the numbers are so small that it hardly matters. Can it really be said that a country is worse because out of 100K people 3 get murdered rather than 1 or 2?

Yes, you're right, but that wasn't my root point, here.

I'm not being patriotic. It's a logical deduction that the taliban was suspected to be hiding al-queda due to how crazy islamic extremist they were.

Ok, misunderstood you.

The factions you mentioned weren't magically created through a US invasion of iraq. They already existed, granted held together by a nutcase dictator. When you have different groups all held together by a crazy dictator, chaos will erupt, the US invasion just sort of set the stage for it to do so.

There are violent groups in America that would probably become violent if the law enforcement knack suddenly dropped. But anyhow, America brought about, or opened, if you will, the problem.

I'm not sure what exactly you think those nations are based off of, but they were based off of hindu and muslim religious grouping. This is why Bangladesh was included as "east pakistan" despite being pretty different from actual pakistan. The only similarity it shared was that it was majority muslim.

Faith is a part of culture, but not all of culture. The root divisions of India and Pakistan was Islam and Hinduism. But in Pakistan, they were Punjab and Pashtun, while the Indians were Hindi and Bengali.

Islam was not promoted in this war, nor was Hinduism, and the folk fought for their country, not for their faiths (for the most part, I know there's probably exceptions).

This is the only intervention I could find, and it was a UN one, not specifically a US one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Somalia_II

America spearheaded all the invasions it was involved in, anyhow, that was the second intervention, although I was wrong, Americans were not directly involved in the 2006 to 2009 war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Somalia_II

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabre_Heard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Union_Mission_to_Somalia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Joint_Task_Force_%E2%80%93_Horn_of_Africa

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/02/first-british-troops-arrive-in-somalia-as-part-of-un-mission

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-20996963

Couldn't find any sources on those numbers, but from what I can find around 3100 civillians have been killed in the war so far, and I highly doubt that 2/3rds of them are from american airstrikes.

I wasn't talking about the war, that began in 2014, also, I misrecalled, it was 800 civilians for Yemen since 2002, and 2014 killed globally in 2014.

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2015/02/02/almost-2500-killed-covert-us-drone-strikes-obama-inauguration/

Before the war even began.

No one is being paid to shill for Hillary. It's a Republican-funded lie and a pathetic attempt at smearing her campaign!