| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 01:44:24 |
{101st} Forgotten Knight
Level 55
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Ok, First of all, I want to say how much I appreciate the larger clan community rallying to help out 101st during this time. I am shocked at how many different clans have come to support us.
Secondly, there are some people saying that clan league was not colluding in any way, but just flat made the wrong decision. Unfortunately, that was not the case as was confirmed to me in a conversation that I had with Outlaw leadership.
Two different stories.
MOTD told me as recently as three days ago when things all started flying to pieces that there had been no talks between members of the panel and members of the Outlaws clan during the decision period. At the time this seemed off to me as they had already made clear to me that they were not going to be following their own rules and/or precedent. Very off. So if you're not following your own rules and precedent, how could you make a decision without discussing things with the affected parties? You couldn't. To think otherwise would be silly.
One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago). Now let me be clear: I don't fault the Outlaws for this. If the decision will be subjective, contact is not only required. It is positively encouraged.
But here's the important question that raises: Why was the 101st clan kept in the dark throughout this whole process? And why is MOTD denying that any talks with Outlaws happened when clearly they did and from the perspective of Outlaws, they didn't feel that they were supposed to kept secret. Did MOTD just forget weeks worth of dialogue? An earlier commenter spent the time to catalog out MOTD's conflict of interest in favoring the Outlaws, so I'm not going to rehash that, but brings me back to my point.
Whether the Bias was intentional or not, there was Bias. Aside from Bias, why else would Outlaws be invited to the table, but not 101st? Why else would they have contact, and yet deny that same contact ever happened?
There have been people pointing out that the panel is becoming discouraged and this sort of thing is what caused ChrisCMU to retire from that position in the first place. That is not at all my intention. I don't want them to be discouraged. I don't want to beat them up in public and drag their names through the mud. I simply want them to do the right thing. I want them to recognize what decisions are theirs to make and what decisions are not. I want them to not arbitrarily start deciding which clans deserve what. I just want them to do the right thing.
There have been many suggestions that have been brought out in the public forum for how to solve this problem without acting unethically or hurting anyone's feelings. Why doesn't clan league leadership simply put together a group of people to settle this. The group could consist of one leader from every division A clan and every division B clan as well as myself and Plat (or other designee). One of the clan league panel could sit in to observe or all of them could. They wouldn't even have to be active. As you can see, people on here feel very strongly about getting this one right. And if this group walks away with an disfavorable result for one party it won't be all the major warlight clans against clan league leadership. It will be a few disgruntled people upset at the whole clan community. That is my suggestion for a solution if the clan league leadership wishes to find a solution. If they intend to dig their heels in and double down on a bad decision, there's not much else I can do about it.
Edited 10/17/2016 01:58:09
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 02:07:38 |
❤HankyPinky 
Level 59
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What makes a clan, the tag or the players? Since people move around between clans so frequently, I say it's the tag. The players who are now in outlaws signed up to represent 101st, and earned the spot in division a. So the rule should be that the clan tag retains the spot in clan league, not a certain percentage of players. But rules need exceptions. If the old clan is not able to field a lineup OR is agreeable to surrendering their spot, then the new clan should get it. The old clan should have the prerogative to release their spot. However, there is another element here. 101st and Lynx are affiliated with each other. For that reason, they should nor be allowed to play in the same division as each other. That would present the opportunity for them to forfeit games to themselves. I don't believe 101st/Lynx possess the complete lack of integrity to execute such a plan, but as a rule, affiliated clans should not be allowed to play in the same division, especially the template selecting division. I agree with the council's decision, but result wish rules were written down for consistency's sake. send 101st to the very bottom you guys want something to complain to cl management about, Hydra is (likely) one spot away from promoting to division b, and we're being sent to the very bottom. Yes we're seeded, but at the end of the day, we have to be better than all the other clans down here to promote. Those are my opinions, and i thank clan league management for all the time and energy they put in to run this league for us.
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 02:16:07 |
Mike
Level 59
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I havent played in CL but I dont like injustice when I see it and as such I'll give my input here, for whatever it's worth. And btw i'm totally neutral of clans and players involved, i have a tone of respect for MotD, Beren and all other CL Panels and their effort into running so successfully this CL, and i'm not representing my clan opinion here just mine.
So 101st and Lynx can't be in the same division because they could corrupt the votes for templates ? But that's also possible for any clans sharing a good relationship (possibly secretly ; and ideally with same tastes for templates), or for Alts playing for another clan, but actually favoring their original clan in their vote. Ofc nobody would believe in any of those, but technically there is no way to prove otherwise, nor is possible to prove that 101st and Lynx would try to cheat.
Moreover it has been said that they may have different tastes for templates so unless 101st is there only to decorate and help Lynx perform, which I doubt -and Lynx don't need this btw. No I think they would try to perform as good as possible and thus vote for the templates they prefer, on their own.
101st is not called Lynx II, is not managed by the same person, it has its own ambition to get good players and perform and so on so it has its own independence.
For the division if the decision remains as it is, the CL panel are sending the message that any clan can lose its division and start from the bottom anytime, as soon as some of its players, who btw had probably been trained during their time in the clan, leave for another clan. This is wrong. Otherwise this is the door open to possible future blackmail by players, the clan loses some of its attraction when recruiting new players despite getting high in CL season after season and having now to start from bottom. And like Hades said, this is also saying a group of players can try to get into a line up of a clan only to steal the spot the clan is the season after, sending the clan to the bottom of CL. CL could not be trusted after that as uncertainty could happen anytime. Risk is will clans put as much effort into CL with that in mind from now on ?
I'll also add that with the new CL format, the price of starting at the bottom is not the same as in the past. It would be a big deal for 101st which has done nothing wrong to deserve to start from bottom, it wouldn't for 101st since not only they chose to leave in knowledge of likely consequence of starting from bottom, but in 2 seasons can be in the division they earn.
Right now, this is assuming Outlaws will be stronger than 101st when CL9 starts, and than any other clans in lower divisions too since this is also unfair to every clan which had to start from bottom when they joined the league. But with all players movements, retirements and hijacks, nobody can predict the future. So basing a decision today on what could happen months from now is a bit of a gamble. What will happen if things turn around and 101st appear to actually become stronger by then than Outlaws, or some Outlaws players decide to come back to 101st, or leave Outlaws, or anything ? Ofc all those are unlikely and I dont wish anything like that, but since future can not be predicted for sure, no assumption should be made.
If 101st (will) stand a chance in Div A is also out of subject, this can be questioned about any clan with all possible (yet unlikely) movements by then. And for the Lynx/One (whichever I forgot) story, the right decision was made, even if the new level was not reflecting the division. Morale was followed, rules were followed and CL panel showed consistency to everyone : no dodgy thing are tolerated. And players involved cant really complain or be complained : its their choice and they got their first goal, get their independence from their original clan. Plus they've already hurt the original clan by leaving it, isnt that enough harm already ?
Edited 10/17/2016 02:51:17
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 02:34:24 |
Benoît
Level 63
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Mike, most of the stuff you said is true but this doesn't apply:
"as soon as some of its players, who btw had probably been trained during their time in the clan, leave for another clan"
-At the time I was in 101st, 101st felt almost totally dissociated from Lynx with almost 0 help coming from them. I am pretty sure that this separation between 101st and Outlaws have been somewhat beneficial to Lynx as they seem to be more involved in 101st now than before. When we separated from Lynx, we expected that we could maybe start from the bottom of Clan League. Outlaws never had the intention to formaly steal 101st spot but we felt we had a claim to get in A. I don't mean by that that Outlaws claim was or is superior to 101st's, but we were prepared at that time to either play in lower divisions or get the division A spot, depending on what the panel would opt for.
Edited 10/17/2016 02:34:55
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 02:45:10 |
Mike
Level 59
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I was talking more in general : say a group of players who perform in CL leave the clan and "steal" the spot, but that group of players became strong thanks to a long time spent in the clan during which they experienced games and training and so on, well, then both the players and the clan itself are as much responsible for their success in CL.
Whether this is the case of 101st is not relevant IMO. CL Panel can not investigate whether players have spent a long time in the clan, have actually been trained or not by others from the clan. We just dont differentiate. A steal of spot just can not happen.
Edited 10/17/2016 02:46:15
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 03:04:31 |
Mike
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Well could you develop then ?
Because the way I imagine it (from the outside)
- when 101 is playing CL, players try to do their best and their goal is to promote (and not promote to just give their vote to Lynx or surr against Lynx, as if Lynx would need this anyway)
- they are not pupeted by Lynx (they dont share accounts)
- 101 has a leader who is not in Lynx and has a role in the clan (decide line ups at least, possibly with help from Lynx here)
I doubt you guys would have stayed so long there without any kind of freedom. Maybe you were an elitist group of players (not in a bad way at all) who for some reasons were not accepted in a stronger clan like Lynx (have you tried MH btw ?? jk), and didnt want to be mixed with random level of players. Ofc im not talking to anyone so that's pure assumptions that outside people like me can only imagine.
Edited 10/17/2016 03:05:09
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 03:10:00 |
Ox
Level 58
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I think the highlighted and hidden posts show which way the vocal majority are swaying on this decision. Clan League, either receive the wake up call you've been given right now, or allow this to be yet another one of the bad decisions that the name is already tarnished with.
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 03:39:52 |
AWESOMEGUY
Level 63
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 03:48:58 |
Zephyrum
Level 60
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-- "101st is not called Lynx II, is not managed by the same person, it has its own ambition to get good players and perform and so on so it has its own independence."
This is basically not true. This is exactly what we wanted and why, as a group, we had to leave. So you're saying 101st was essentially LynxB before the outlaws founders jumped ship? But didn't you also say before that Lynx wasn't getting involved/helping 101st? Then how can a clan operating supposedly independently be a B-team? This simply does not follow. You all claim the same thing - little Lynx involvement, but were still involved enough to make 101st "LynxB".
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 03:52:03 |
Dogberry
Level 57
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Since my name was thrown into that last post (EDIT: AG's, not Zeph's), I'll respond.
That game you listed with me was part of a streamed RT tournament. Training was not the main mission. I also thought that was before you joined Lynx, though I could be mistaken on that point.
The disconnection was real. As a member of their training clan, I would have loved to have felt part of a larger Lynx community. This is something I wanted but was missing.
The best thing to come from the Outlaw/101st schism is that it prompted Lynx to reconnect with the 101st. I would have loved to have felt even a fraction of the support the 101st now gets from Lynx.
Edited 10/17/2016 04:01:51
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 04:06:44 |
Benoît
Level 63
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@AG
Ok AG, I had a bit of common games with Lynx but other than you and ZBD, I did not received much help from any Lynx when I was there or even talked much with any guys there...The chat was almost ZBD and AG with some 101st guys...That is why I said ex-101st received ALMOST 0 help from Lynx and that the present situation in Lynx seems to be better now.
In total honesty, if all Lynx would have been so involved in 101st community like you and ZBD (before the scandal), maybe things could have worked out better between ex-101st and Lynx. No wonder people in Outlaws still like you a lot and are happy to see you!
Edited 10/17/2016 04:10:48
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 04:44:59 |
TheRiverStyxie
Level 61
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@ Forgotten Knight. I have stayed off the forum thus far not because we "got what we wanted" but because this ridiculous flamefest is not something I nor the Outlaws members feel is procuctive to anyone. I do however wish to comment on one thing and one thing only. One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago). To clarify, Platinum contacted the clan league panel due to the rule that replacement games/retired players must be declared. That is what he did. This was known to you at the time because we relayed the information that the panel had stated that the replacement games were given on condition that both 101st and Outlaws agreed on replacement players. 101st and Outlaws then agreed between us on one 101st player (Kantos who had moved from lynx to 101st and Bonsai from Outlaws.). At the same time, Platinum asked the panel what would happen regarding the clan league spot and the panel said that they would discuss the situation and make a decision which would be announced at a later date. This again was relayed directly to you via Platinum. There were no futher talks/discussions until Platinum asked a couple of weeks ago if a decision had been arrived at to which he was told the panel were still in discussion about it and had been discussing it for a couple of months already. No further information was given to us. Don't make out there were sneaky talks when there wasn't, you were fully aware of all the information that had been relayed to us. The clan league panel didn't approach us, Plat approached them to declare Jinxed retired and to ask what would happen with the clan league spot. You were fully able to do the same thing and approach the clan league panel yourselves. The fact that you have come out here in public and trying to twist words is disgusting, after I specifically asked you to discuss any concerns you have with me privately. You are stating that I admitted that we spoke to the clan league panel like it was a taboo thing when you were fully aware a couple of months ago that the clan league panel had decided that both 101st and outlaws had to agree on 2 replacement players. Else how would both clans have agreed on kantos if you didn't know we had spoken to the panel about it?!? But here's the important question that raises: Why was the 101st clan kept in the dark throughout this whole process? You had exactly the same opportunities as us to contact the panel yourselves. The fact that we did and you did not is your responsibility. There have been no "secret talks". Every step we have taken in this process has been fully disclosed to yourselves and the clan league panel. There are so many misconceptions being thrown around here simply because people want some drama, it's ridiculous. For those people who seem to be making their own reasons up about the reasons why we "left" 101st and formed outlaws, have you ever thought to ask us instead of coming to your own conclusions? Just because we decided to not make a huge public deal over the split from 101st and post it all over the forums at the time, people seem to think it's ok to just make up a load of crap themselves. Thank you to those who did come to us and ask the reasons for the split which we happily gave privately. This is the only time I will be posting on any of this. Platinum will be fully addressing everyone's points when he gets back. If anyone would like to contact me privately in the meantime regarding any of this, I will be happy to talk to you and answer any questions. This to me is the correct way of addressing these kind of issues, instead of this ridiculous flamefest and drama all over the forums which only serves to be counterproductive to all.
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 05:21:34 |
KKND
Level 60
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DivB had no drama, and now we got it :(
Can we gather DivA and DivB leaders and talk in some chat maybe?
this thread is not productive at all, you just through you bad feelings to each other
p.s. sorry for my bad english, it's my 3/4 language
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 05:27:39 |
Deadman
Level 64
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Given that most people have had their say, I thought I would respond. @ForgottenKnight MOTD told me as recently as three days ago when things all started flying to pieces that there had been no talks between members of the panel and members of the Outlaws clan during the decision period.
One of the leaders of Outlaws had a frank (and civil) dialogue with me last night and in that talk, they admitted that yes, Outlaws had been in contact with the panel about this decision. As a matter of fact, they had on and off contact for weeks. They said the dialogue started when the discussion of replacement players first came up (almost two months ago).
why is MOTD denying that any talks with Outlaws happened when clearly they did and from the perspective of Outlaws, they didn't feel that they were supposed to kept secret. Did MOTD just forget weeks worth of dialogue? An earlier commenter spent the time to catalog out MOTD's conflict of interest in favoring the Outlaws, so I'm not going to rehash that, but brings me back to my point. I dont know what conversation you had. But if anyone says that I've talked to an Outlaw about this decision, they are lying. Like I've already stated to you, we were asked about it and all we have told them is that a decision will be made in due course. Stop painting me as a dishonest person to whip up public support. You can do better than that mate. For what it's worth, I was the only person who had an intial viewpoint which was pro 101st, but was convinced otherwise and I fully stand by our decision.
In our minds, the clan league is one of the most competitive arenas on Warlight. We hope that once people calm down, they reconsider their threat to boycott this competition. This issue is complex and we have discussed it at length. There is always going to be someone unsatisfied with the decision. There have been a few precedents which we've outlined in the intial post. While we've considered them, we want to do what is right today and we believe that this is the right call. In our minds, the people make up a clan and not the other way around. I also fully acknowledge that the LEA/ACME situation is similar. If the current panel was in charge at the time, there is only one resolution to that issue and that is ACME getting that spot in C. It is fair for people to disagree with this opinion. But to come out and say we are stupid or dishonest is a bit harsh. At the end of the day, we all want a league which is consistent and fair. If there are no rules which can be used to decide on a contentious issue, there will always be subjective opinion. The best we can do at this point is to institute a rule which outlines how such issues will be dealt with in the future. Does that guarantee that we will have a rule to fall back on, for every issue that arises? Of course not. Running this league is a thankless task. I can see why ChrisCMU quit, and we're inclined to do the same if the majority thinks we're not up to the job. So I would like to ask every registered leader in CL8 to vote on the following: - We would like the current panel to stay. They are doing the job to the best of their ability. - We would like the current panel to give up control. There are others who are more capable of running this competition. I will create a chat game with all the registered leaders of CL8 and you have 2 weeks to vote. If we don't receive a vote from a leader, that's an abstention. If you vote that we should leave, we'll gladly do so. Once the next panel in place, we will help them to the best of our ability if they require anything from us. We have a CLOT which can run the competition on the new format proposed a month ago. If a new panel is instituted, we will give them access to the CLOT if they decide to use the new format. If you vote to keep the current panel, we will respond to some valid concerns raised around issues like clan hijacking, B teams etc. We've talked about these issues, but I am in no mood to give explanations when people are questioning our integrity. EDIT: Link to the vote chat - https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12132630
Edited 10/17/2016 06:10:43
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| Clan League 8 Division B Official Thread: 2016-10-17 06:38:24 |
{101st} Forgotten Knight
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ok, so here we go again I guess. (although like everyone else, I agree that it is getting troublesome just trying to get CL council to admit having made a mistake). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/take_one%27s_ball_and_go_home#EnglishI've linked an article relevant to the current situation. When we were kids, we all knew that one kid. He was the one who owned the baseball bat or the soccer ball or some other essential equipment to play the sport. The Clan League council owns the Clan League "ball". Anyhow, back to this kid. When playing with him, he would play by a different set of rules. Essentially, he would cheat. He would cheat because he knew he could get away with it. Why could he get away with it? Because he owned the ball and if you ever dared to call him out for his cheating....you all know what would happen. He would take his ball and go home. This is what Clan League is threatening with this ridiculous vote of confidence they're taking. If we don't all pony up and get in line, they are willing to burn clan league to the ground, because who else is ready to take over? That's how important this is to them. This is how unwilling to admit to a mistake they are. They are ready to kill the whole league. Oh and by the way..... we all keep getting told that Outlaws WERE NOT given special access to the council. And we all keep getting told that 101st WAS NOT kept at arms length.....and yet.... Look at the game of all the division A and B clan leaders here: https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12132630Take a look at that list of people. Who all is there. Who all is not there. Let me point out a couple obvious ones. Platinum is there. I am not. Clan League leaders, you've all but proved everything I've said about how the process went down. Nobody wants you to quit. We want you to make the right call. You know what the right call is. Basically everyone on this thread except for Nauz and people with an Outlaw tag know what the right call is. Does your pride really prevent you from admitting a mistake? Is this where we're at? We all have to bow down before your Godhood and swear allegiance that you are never wrong or else you're quitting? I call on you. Humble yourselves. Give a quick "my bad, we didn't think this through" and let's all move on with life.
Edited 10/17/2016 06:49:00
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