As someone who has long been involved in the 101st/Lynx community (been in Lynx for years), and am close with a few Outlaws, I would really like to give a brief opinion.

I agree with the council's decision. That said, this was not a black-and-white issue, and I fully understand why 101st feels they should have gotten the spot. Both clans definitely had a case for it, and I think the council made the correct decision in giving the spot to Outlaws.

The council is not biased. They simply felt that giving the spot to Outlaws was the fairest move here. Reports of the council being Outlaw-friendly simply are not true. Please lay off the council members simply because you do not agree with one decision they made.

Huge thanks to the council for all the hard and thankless work they do!

Edited 10/17/2016 07:05:01

Knight, your interpretation of events is overly melodramatic and - no offense - but at times borderline paranoid. I think that's the last thing this thread needs and much like Nauzor, you need to cool it off a bit.

I for one agree with panel's decision 100% as a complete neutral in the matter.I understand their line of thinking, I am relatively familiar with past rulings and the hindsight of it all. The irony of this is that Lynx of all clans should understand why it would be a bad idea to have 101A ruling in this case. It's true that the decision imposed on Lynx previously was a bad one and I think everyone involved expressed a change of heart in hindsight. It would be wrong to let that ruling be a reason to impose the same bad decision on someone else again.

You cannot change the history and all you can is do right by people now, as they say - two wrongs don't make a right. And the opposite kind of ruling, for which we also have precedent(XS -ONE) didn't yield any regrets whatsoever and to this day everyone involved thinks it was a right call.

I assure you there are other people who feel the same way but just don't think it's a good idea to add more flame into all this nonsense. However, the most important part of this, and why I am reacting is your idea of right and wrong based on the level of support. Let's please not get into that mob mentality.

The vote on panel is unfortunately a natural cause-and-effect thing here as some people don't think panel did the good job, and if anything is a sign of integrity. If anyone took a ball and went home,it's the people on "your" side of the fence threatening with boycott because they don't agree with panel's decision. And lest we forget, it IS the panel's decision, that's exactly what that panel is for. It's not mine or yours or people disgruntled with it. So now we vote on whether we have the confidence in that panel or not.

And to be clear there are plenty of other things in the thread that I don't think should've come into making that decision. I did express concern for having an academy play the same league as parent clan (yes I know 101 is technically a parent) but again, it's a separate issue. Also, perceived skill shouldn't come into any decisions (and I think it didn't).

@Forgotten Knight

"Basically everyone on this thread except for Nauz and people with an Outlaw tag know what the right call is."

Don't delude yourself. Outraged people are always more likely to be vocal.


It's like a review, when you buy a product and it works great you don't write a review. When you buy a product and it breaks a week later you write a nasty review.

People are far more prone to voice their dissent than they re to voice approval. This should not be news to anyone remotely intelligent, so do not act like a vocal minority constitutes a majority.

After reading through endless arguments pro and contra on the 101st/outlaws matter. First of all i would like to state that i somehow disagree with the councils decision based on their approach on that voting but i FIRMLY like to point out that those involved i higly value knowing them trying to be fair, friendly and in best interest for majority the clan league.

None the less of course i do accept the decision and also like to say "Thank you once more guys for all the effort and time you put into this to make this event beeing able to happen!!!"

I do agree that the members of outlaws where the ones winning the spot in A but the splitting from 101st during an ongoing season is my main concern.

What i do understand is that 101st still got an active roster and management right?... Has there ever been any DIRECT communication between the leaders and decisionmakers of 101st and outlaws on that spot?

I would like to see that 101st and outlaws come up with a decsion on that topic. 101st should have a vote on if they think they are interested and able to provide a roster capable of competing in A. If not they should give the spot to their former comrades (now outlaws) who haven proven to be good enough to earn their spot in A.

I do believe that both 101st and outlaws do have good understanding of that situation and their actions which led to that incident and the arguments that followed. That said i can see them come forward with conclusion without a decision of the council needed in first place.

Or are their any reasons i dont see why the management of 101st and outlaws are not able to make reasonable and agreeable decision on that? :-)

Step it up guys.... be HONEST and FAIR for the FUN and enjoyment of this game !!:-)

Cheers

Why did the Clan League Council invite Platinum but not ForK to the game where the vote is supposed to take place...?

The problem is very simple and clear:

In a clan league the clan owns the participation right and not its players. If we now do violate this simple principle of a clan league, we have a very big problem:

Players change clans and as they form teams, you will have to decide very often, who will gain a spot in which division.

That is not the taks of the council and will always bring the council in such bad situations. Even if we put away this case, the next case will create the exat same situation, which will be decided by "arguments". The only valid argument in a clan league is the participation right which is owned by the clan.

It is completly irrelevant how much work, effort Lynx or someone else did put into 101st. How you like the persons in the clans and who is more likeable. The clan is alive - although some tried to kick all players - and therefore did not loose its right to participation.

I do not see a single arguement to remove the right of participation from 101st. One has to argue, why you remove this right from 101st and not the other way around. And this arguments can only be related to the clan and not to the players - which are irrelvant in case of law for a clan league.

Everything else is arbitrariness. You may not be affected now, but the next situation will occur earlier than we all believe. Lets keep the basic rule of a clan league:
Clans are the essence of a clan league.

Edited 10/17/2016 09:05:45

This is what Clan League is threatening with this ridiculous vote of confidence they're taking. If we don't all pony up and get in line, they are willing to burn clan league to the ground, because who else is ready to take over?

That's how important this is to them. This is how unwilling to admit to a mistake they are. They are ready to kill the whole league.

This is what you got out of my post? Let me try to spell it out better in the hope that it sinks through. We're giving the community the right to vote out this council which makes decisions if it thinks we are dishonest as you have claimed. We're not burning the league down as you seem to claim. We would rather give up our position on the council and have someone else the community trusts than have players boycott the league. I even go so far as to say that we will provide all the help that is asked of us to ensure a smooth transition. We will also give access to the CLOT, which I've spent countless hours coding and testing with players on Warlight. And yet you somehow manage to paint me as the guy who is going to burn down the league?

Why did the Clan League Council invite Platinum but not ForK to the game where the vote is supposed to take place...?

I have invited every registered clan leader at the beginning of CL8. Was ForK registered? Also to be perfectly clear, this vote is not for who gets the spot. This vote is to determine if the panel is dishonest and abusing power.

Edited 10/17/2016 09:19:41

MotD.... are you out of your mind?????????? :-P

Why even consider an opinion someone calling you or the panel dishonest :-(......

Cheers... thanks for all your efforts :-)

Edited 10/17/2016 09:17:34

I have invited every registered clan leader at the beginning of CL8. Was ForK registered?

If you only account for registered clan leaders at the beginning of CL8, then this means that 101st has no representation whatsoever in this vote considering Platinum was appointed as the registered clan leader for 101st at the start of the season, but walked out to form Outlaws...

Honestly, I believe the decision should be given to clan leaders. Period. Not "registered clan leaders at the start of CL8". AwesomeGuy, for example, is semi-retired and has little to no affiliation with VIW anymore. What can be said about the other ones?

There were no futher talks/discussions until Platinum asked a couple of weeks ago if a decision had been arrived at to which he was told the panel were still in discussion about it and had been discussing it for a couple of months already. No further information was given to us.


Fact : Outlaws state on their clan page "we are looking for players to help us compete in Division A of Clan League"?
I saw this weeks ago.

Vote seems like a bit of a waste of time. I think the majority of people disagree with the panels decision but nobody or very few wish for a new panel. Most if not all appreciate you guys did what you thought was best.

Think it would be more worthwhile to vote on whether outlaws or 101st get the spot than on replacing the panel.

Running this league is a lot of thankless work. We get a lot of grief without any payoff. If we are constantly being overruled by the community then we don't think it's worth it. If you'd rather have a panel that will have the community vote on all controversial topics, you should probably look for a new panel.

Beren, I do understand the situation, but if we are objective, the legal situation is pretty clear:

The participation right in a clan league is owned by the clans. In first turn, there is not a single reason to violate this principle.

I do understand, that the panel did take a decision and it is somehow hard to find a solution that satisfies everyone and it also difficult to change judgement. We can talk and find a solution, but the current legislation does violate so much principles of a clan league. And a first sign one wants to talk is to invite the two parties of this case (representatives of 101st and representatives of Outlaws).

This is such a basic thing not only the council can decide. It is not easy to make such decisions and I think noone really wants to be the judge in such a situation. I know it is not an easy job, but the current solution is simply bullshit.

Yeah, we may vote for the current council, but even with this the whole event and the authority of the council gets hurt, as this does not solve the problem. This will cause much more problems longterm than this case.

You know a lot about how a clan league should work and be runned.

Can you name me one major team league (soccer, football etc.) where the players own the participation right of the team and not the team founder?

I do not know any. There is no special rule for this, as it is that basic. I know it is difficult and all in all you do a great job, as you can see by the popularity of this event.

But in this specific case your decision does not convince me and many others, as it violates this simple principle.

Edited 10/17/2016 12:15:36

I'm in full agreement with Hades. I like the idea of having clan leaders (not registered clan leaders at start of a clan league) being involved with not just the council making important decisions like "People make up the clan. Not the other way around."

@psykkoman : Yes, we noticed. And it's not the only thing that caught our attention either...

Edited 10/17/2016 12:18:28

what was it that also caught your attention?

Are we really continue talking about a "conspiracy" because we stated that on our Clan site? :D

It should be well known that u have to prepare for every possible outcome before it is to late. If u want to have longterm success u need to start in the present.

I'm actually surprised that we talk about this after the comment of JSA. I thought the matter had resolved itself.

A lot of crap has been chucked around in this thread over the last couple of days from people on both sides of the argument, and i think anyone resulting to making personal insults to the CL committee (or anyone else for that matter) should be ashamed. At the end of the day this is just a game and your trying to resolve a difficult issue which doesn't have a perfect outcome which suits everyone.

In terms of motd suggestion:

'So I would like to ask every registered leader in CL8 to vote on the following:
- We would like the current panel to stay. They are doing the job to the best of their ability.
- We would like the current panel to give up control. There are others who are more capable of running this competition.'

I believe the current panel is doing the best job they can do and would like them to continue doing so, but the only change I would make is maybe divesting some of their powers to the wider CL community. For instance, in most major sports when there has been a suggestion for a key change in say the league structure or what to do when a club goes bust, all other clubs get to vote on what they think should happen, I don't see many negatives to using this in CL especially when there is no current rule which can be used to resolve the issue.

I'm not going to get into the argument of who should have the A spot but I don't see any reason why 101st should not be in B next season and just have 3 relegation spots for 1 season. There isn't really an argument against it (please do post if there is) as the players who moved to outlaws were not the ones to get them as far as B.

Edited 10/17/2016 13:03:51

I am very disappointed that our nice and quite CL Division B thread is being abused. Take this discussion elsewhere, pls.