So I would like to ask every registered leader in CL8 to vote on the following:
- We would like the current panel to stay. They are doing the job to the best of their ability.
- We would like the current panel to give up control. There are others who are more capable of running this competition.

the issue of voting should not be this, but rather, to whom do you think the spot in Division A returns.
there you take the people hostage emotional!
we do not want you to stop! there's just no agreement with the decision
if there are so many people disagree, it is good to hold a vote! but the question is not the good one.

le Marseillais you are off topic, go somewhere else, pls.

Edited 10/17/2016 13:42:02

Yeah. Can the panel comment on allowing 101st to compete in B? and including an extra relegation spot? I think that's a fair compromise.

It's been suggested a few times and nobody has come up with a reason against it. Outlaw players got 101st into A, but 101st had earned a B slot fair and square from 6 seasons without the help of any outlaws.

To all the people that claims that the decision was wrong (you have the right to think so) and that it should be voted for the community (or clan leaders or something):
What was the point on having a committe then? The whole point was to have someone to decide if problems appear. If you don't agree with it why didn't you suggested the clan leaguers voting (or whatever) as an alternative solution AT THE BEGGINING? You only protest when you don't like the veredict? Very logical.

And I'm not saying that all people needs to agree with the decision but, at least, you should respect it. That is the point of having a committe.

So if they kick Icelandic Turtles out of CL just becouse they can or decide for no reason that 4 clans now will relegate from A, I have to say: Ok, i dont like that but i respect it. It s cool guys!

I dont think so. I ll tell you what I think anyway. 3 relegation spots is unfair for other clans in that division. And Outlaws not starting not from the bottom is also unfair for thouse clans who had to start from there.

Edited 10/17/2016 15:33:56

@Sultan
It's not the same "a problem happened --> we search for a solution" than "we do whatever we want whenever we want because".
And when a problem of this kind happens, ALL solutions are unfair to some degree, so that's not a valid point. You can't say "don't so X because it's unfair" when "doing Y or Z" it's also unfair. There is no happy for all solution, regretably.

Please use this thread now: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/205389-cl-101outlaw-committe-discussion

Clan League guys what the heck? Why did you stick NinjaNic in our spot ACME in the vote game? He's never been our registered clanleague person. Me and JT lead ACME and I believe CJ was the one in charge of clanleague roster. not questioning anybody's integrity or anything but someone's making some bizarre decisions for you all. is this trying to stack the jury's to a favorable result or are you guys just legit making it all up as you go along?

Dr. Stupid please take this discussion to the other thread. If you seriously want someone else from ACME in that game I suggest a PM to the organizers instead of public outcry.

At the end of the day, no matter how much off-topic things everybody throw on this thread, Sultan is right and there are two main problems here, that nobody answered to :

- Why wouldn't Outlaws start from the bottom like the other clans who came to the CL?

- Why would 101st, a clan who was in divB before all of this happened, would go back to the bottom for no reason?

That's the two points that make this unfair, nothing else, nothing more. The rest is pointless/offtopic (the 'hijack' thing, the skill argument, etc...) and should'nt be brang here.

should we all take bets on how long linbersen is gonna stalk this thread begging people to use his other thread instead?
;)
Imma say 24 hrs before he gives up. lol

At the end of the day, no matter how much off-topic things everybody throw on this thread

You sir, are off-topic.

should we all take bets on how long linbersen is gonna stalk this thread begging people to use his other thread instead?
;)
Imma say 24 hrs before he gives up. lol

You dont know how stubborn i can be.

I would like to say I am shocked this complaining still happens...but I am not. People work their butts off to put this on, and yet people still whine when they are doing the best they can.

Such a shame, considering this is the BEST competition on this site.

I believe the dilemma that the panel faced was that of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus.

Here is a short video explaining the paradox: https://youtu.be/-TFCMK4i2lo?t=8s

If even one player leaves 101st then has the clan changed? Is it still the same clan? If the player was important enough then I would say it has. However, maybe you disagree. Maybe you think that a clan's identity is more than just one player. Well then, what if half of its members leave? What if all of its members leave?

At some point we would all agree that the clan is different in some way from the original clan that contained the original members. That is, they do not have the same properties. If Platnium caused the clan to be divisive, unstable, and uncomfortable (I have no idea. I was never in 101st.) then with him gone 101st is a different clan because it has different properties than a 101st with said player.

Back to the central question. How much can a clan change before it becomes "a different clan"? This line is arbitrary and nobody can say they know for sure where the line has to be drawn. Some would say that the loss of even one player if that player (say a leader) is influential enough, it would radically change the identity of the clan while others may say that so long as one member remains then the clan is still in its original form.

So as logical human beings, our only hope for practical application is an appeal to authority. Because the line is subjective and often biased we need to place faith in a biased and subjective authority. Some times this authority may contradict itself, change its stance, or blur the line but the important thing is that it is making decisions where as if we stand here and argue about it, we will never reach a solution. Philosophers have argued about identity for centuries. We do not have centuries to argue about this so we must put our faith in imperfect and subjective human beings so that the league can actually function.

Edited 10/17/2016 18:25:56

This comment has caused me to have an existential crises.

What is a clan? Am I a clan? Are any of us a clan or are all of us a clan? Are any of us at all?

I believe that 101st of today is totally different than Apollo's 101st. Claiming Fork is the same as Apollo is seriously stupid and ignorant. I would say 101st changed so much since the original 101st, that anyone claiming to have a right to the spot for being an original 101st outside of Blowfly is really a petty argument.

I would say 101st went through several different identities and "clanhoods" for the past years:

- Apollo's original 101st, this clan disappeared when Lynx was formed and the best players moved to it.

- Declining 101st in a Lynx-101st system existed after that, it got relegated twice in the CL, no one was really in charge and the clan came near extinction.

- Childish 101st then appeared under Platinum I. Because he made some poor decisions and clearly lacked maturity, he was taken out of the clan's business.

- Platinum II took advices from Styxie and Zero before he became evil managed to get promoted to B, later joined Markus, Tacky, Bonsai, Jinxed and I that played under 101st banner willing to join Lynx in the future.

- Rebelious 101st then rose to power. We didnt want to break a full functional clan to give our bests to Lynx when outside of Zero and mostly AG we'd never got any training from any fooking Lynx. We tried to make it work with a fusion, a system where Lynx remaining active players joined us or an independent system. Apollo came back and made it clear he wanted his clan back. We decided to move over and return the clan ownership to Apollo. When it came clear that Zero was manipulating us and later spying for months out of idk the fuck why, there wasn't really a comeback.

- Forgotten knight assumes control of 101st and believes Zero small talk that the spot of 101st belongs to him because it belonged to Apollo and that Outlaws are jerks that left the ship without any reason.


Seriously claiming that we colluded with the council is not only blatant ignorance towards the story that happened but also insulting to the council. We'd never knew for months or weeks (as some conspiracionists would say) about the decision.

Us saying that the spot was ours and that we were recruiting for A next season was just a way to mark our position in the matter more than a full certainty that the spot was ours. We were as y'all taken by surprise by the panel's decision, and for I ignored they'd been discussing that issue for months.

Oh and don't feel sorry if Zero manipulated you guys for months until believing the spot was rightfully tours for idk what reason. He lied, spyied and tryied to recruit some of us, and his small talk to you probably isn't nothing but a way to take a revenge against us.

I'm seriously disapointed Lynx didn't punish him at all after the hacking Tacky's account/spying on us thing. That probably crippled my opinion of Lynx up to a point where sincere and honorable members such as AG, JSA, Andy and Hades can't do anything to restore it.

Edited 10/17/2016 23:19:55

Again I would really apreciate it if you voice your opinion about 101/Outlaws or the committe not in this thread but here: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/205389-cl-101outlaw-committe-discussion.

That's like saying a person who is nice for 10 years but commits a murder after that was actually a great guy because he was so nice all the time. What is that person remembered for? Probably the murder. (Not implying ZBD is a murderer btw >.>)

@Farah, not that it is relevant at all. But people DO say that about murderers in real life you know. "He was a good guy etc"

Even more so if that guy was a policeman or something. Anyway, also not relevant. (Also not implying that ZBD murdered someone)

Edited 10/18/2016 00:56:23

Murdering a cookie is non-reversible and the damage dealt is permanent.
But breaking into a skype account is no where near as drastic. xD

Breaking into someone's skype is pretty much breaching their privacy. Not sure what you discuss on skype, but i wouldn't want anyone else to have access to my skype.

not that it is relevant at all. But people DO say that about murderers in real life you know. "He was a good guy etc"

Yes, I believe there's even a psychological term for it, though i cant recall it right now. Not that it proves that the murderer is actually a good person though, just the different ways people judge others. (Very much implying Tbest murdered ZBD)