In cyclic games, determining move order can mean the difference between a win and a loss. Usually that is done by watching the other player's moves to see if his first move gets priority in a position he does not have an order priority card (or, if an order priority card was played by both players, move order is used normally).

But the pre-move deployments for every turn also follow the same move order, apparently. So, if you watch closely to see the other person's deployments next to you, you can actually determine move order from that even if the other player tries to hide the move order by always making first move out of sight, even if no other information is given. This does not seem very logical to me, as this is extremely important information, yet some turns your only deployments would be within view of your opponent.


Now for a real example, from two titans on the 1v1 ladder:

https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=12354779

Turn 5, Ollie now knows for a fact that he gets second order on odd turns and first order on evens because Buns' deployment to Australia happened before any of his own deployments. Looking at his moves, there was no way for him to know prior to this. Unfortunately for Buns, he was unable to see the truth of the cycle until turn 7 when Ollie's first deployment occurred before his.

Does this seem fair? Does this correctly fit within the logic of strategic 1v1? Discussion is needed on the matter.

This also seems important because order priority does not affect deployment order. There is simply no way to obscure the move cycle without deliberately making first deployment out of sight of your opponent, which seems a bit unnecessary.

Edited 11/29/2016 19:18:39

you can Change to order of your deployements just like you can decide when you move armies. i don't see a Problem here.

Yes, but deployment order has no useful purpose in this game, so why would it be necessary to worry about the order in which you deploy armies???

Initially I thought this was pointless but after reading it, I can see your point. It is possible for an opponent to determine turn order based on your deployment... it would only happen in certain scenarios (only deploying to front lines on a turn with first order) but it can still happen. The only surefire way to avoid it is to deploy an army away from the frontlines which arguably wastes that army, or at least alters your budgeting.

ollie could have known the move order already after turn 3 cause he had an even number of moves before the attack of buns to southpole happened. buns knew it after turn 5 cause he moved once before ollie had a movement

edit: same is about deployments. if you have an even number of deployements before your Opponent deploys, he has first move that turn. if odd, you have first move that turn

Edited 11/29/2016 19:29:16

There are some positions where you can prove that not deploying full income bordering your opponent would result in a loss, I think, so what we should decide is whether this is acceptable to strategic 1v1 settings. I'm thinking about positions early in the game for example, let's say you and your opponent have very close picks to each other, and the placement of 1 army in the wrong place could be a huge error. Is deployment order really an acceptable reason to have to potentially lose a game? It has no use if it is not cyclic xD

While I see no need to have any particular order to deployments (why not just deploy all of one player's armies, then all of the next?), I also don't see this as being an overly concerning issue. If anything you could argue having it is a reward to the more attentive players... I know I certainly never paid any attention to deployment order.

I just discovered it, and will definitely use it in the future, it's just a bit absurd to think that's the only reason I would ever bother looking at deployments. Lol

Very good observation here. There is no doubt that deployment order information has the potential to determine the outcome of a cyclic order game.

Was this behavior intentionally programmed into WL?

Are there any cards that can be positioned in the middle of the deployment orders?

Edited 11/29/2016 21:37:55

FK you just need to get gud.

This is common knowledge to anyone at the top levels of the game. In fact it's spelled out in both Norman and Odin's guides.

+1 for learning

+1 to Beren's O_o

+1 to motd pointing out that the rabbit hole is even deeper than you think ...

Thank you quicksand!

I also see this as "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kind of thing. It's for example often very easy to determine an opponents income if they first deploy elsewhere, then at the border. So if you want to hide move order by deploy elsewhere first, you'd have to sacrifice some extra knowledge to the opponent. Managing and collecting information is important in this game and all the small intrinsic tools that allow players to do so are a plus imho.

One day, when I'm good enough, people will confuse Quicksand with Quicksilver :P

i would add that the order should explicit on screen once it's logically deduced from previous turns, either lost first pick, saw first deployment or move by opponent, etc. it's just annoying to have to go back and check it every time you're planning a new turn, especially in multiday games where it's easy to forget who has first turn when. i'm thinking of the top left text where it says "it's your turn", should clearly say if move order is random, if first move priority is yet undetermined or if you have it or not, i know it says the orders of everyone on cyclic team games when you hover over the ?, but it could be improved further.

It gives away the order in no luck cyclic only and i dislike it. Put in the effort or don't expect to be successful. I don't want to play the games no skill where it tells you everything (turn order, armies you kill, opponents income after it's clear what he got).

Edited 11/30/2016 21:32:53

PS, I agree with your position with one limitation. It should be up to the player to enter that information if it is a cyclic game. Just because it has been determined by the gameplay, that doesn't mean the player has realized that determination.

Allow for the player to enter when they think they have first turn and base it off that moving forwards. For a good player it would provide the same outcome you advocated while not giving away free information to the less perceptive.

One day, when I'm good enough, people will confuse Quicksand with Quicksilver :P

Just like one day MoD will be good enough to not be confused with MotD?

I also see this as "it's not a bug, it's a feature" kind of thing. It's for example often very easy to determine an opponents income if they first deploy elsewhere, then at the border. So if you want to hide move order by deploy elsewhere first, you'd have to sacrifice some extra knowledge to the opponent. Managing and collecting information is important in this game and all the small intrinsic tools that allow players to do so are a plus imho.

+1

@OP,
This is a great feature which adds so much to the game. So much information can be extracted in team games! It is definitely fair in my opinion. It also allows you to play a lot of mind games/intimidate opponents ;)

I can see where you're coming from though. It feels like "hidden" knowledge, but that's why you have a sub-forum for Strategy :)