Or you could recruit talented players from opean games. In fact I would argue that Mike's two templates idee may even reduce the incentive to steal players. Since now more players gets to play for their main clan.

Certainly having more players required to play in clan league will help test the depth of clans even further than it does now. This idea, in the end, benefits clans that are larger by nature, say, for example M'Hunters, whose depth is crazy, and hurts clans that rely on minimal depth, say, WG.

It really comes down as to what really clan league should be about. Do we want clan league to favor larger, depth laden clans? Or do we want clan league to be friendly to smaller, more close knit groups? Poaching is going to happen either way, I don't think its related to number of players playing in clan league, rather, it is related to the "elite" perception of A clans, and a player's inherent desire to prove they are among the best warlight players. Until a clan manages to prove that they can compete with the tops in spite of not being exclusive, will this perception continue to exist, and so will poaching. I don't see how any restructure of clan league will ever change this.

I don't think we should fix things that work. Hardly any clan fielded only 6 players, because it's generally a bad idea to flood players with 3 templates when you have an option not to.

"I don't think we should fix things that work. Hardly any clan fielded only 6 players, because it's generally a bad idea to flood players with 3 templates when you have an option not to. "

It doesn't work if players play for another clan, since the main clan don't have enough slots. Right now CL favors smaller clans. As Aura correctly pointed out, it really comes down to what CL should be about.

My preference would open up for a clan to field multiple teams. And consider trainee clans, as a team B. (i.e Can't be in same div as main, etc. rules need to be added.)

I don't fully understand. MH used only 9 players to fill 18 slots. The reason they didn't use more players was not that there were not enough slots. It's because other players weren't as strong, right?. So allowing MH2 to take part would solve the problem. Having a rule that at least 9 players would have to play would not solve the problem, since nothing would change.

Where am I wrong?

Rento,
Ofc MH could have lined up 18 different good players (30 different current members of MH have recorded a top 50 rank in at least one ladder), but under current rules, we had to adapt to other clan strategy in order to be competitive.
However, MH could also have lined up only 6 players, its top 6 players, and probably would have had even better results. But MH doesnt see CL this way. I talk under Norman and other clanmates control but I feel we see CL as the most important event in WL community and as such, lots of players want to participate, fight for and represent their clan. I'm pretty sure this is the same in every clan, but other clans are more results driven. I don't blame those clans, I just wish, on behalf of all players that can not be lined up, that more players would be required per clan.

2 templates per player is a bad idea imo. Forces a clan to have at least 9 active members to play. Right now we barely had 6 active people because life happens.

All that does is encourage clans to steal people from other clans to fill up their roster.

On top of what Tbest said, I would add that this problem could (should) be solved by the other suggestion

clans could line up only players registered in the roster listed in the previous CL season

... this would put a strong limit on steal of players from lower clans.

Certainly having more players required to play in clan league will help test the depth of clans even further than it does now.

Well sorry right now it does not. You can rule CL with as little as 6 players, what kind of depth is that.

This idea, in the end, benefits clans that are larger by nature, say, for example M'Hunters, whose depth is crazy, and hurts clans that rely on minimal depth, say, WG.

It really comes down as to what really clan league should be about. Do we want clan league to favor larger, depth laden clans? Or do we want clan league to be friendly to smaller, more close knit groups?

Indeed this would favour clans like MH or Outlaws, but my suggestion was not to favour MH, it was more for what I think CL is about, or should be about : maximize players participating in CL, make the community better, define the best clan under these conditions. ie current player skills but also scouting talents, recruiting, training them, and so on.
This is a task that clans would regularly require to complete in order to remain competitive, whereas sticking to their current strenghts would make them decline compare to other clans that are improving. Succeeding in these tasks also defines what a good clan is, therefore CL should also account for this specifically. CL would thus grant clans that do the effort and do it successfully, and this way help develop the community through those noble tasks.

I don't think we should fix things that work.

As things stand right now, Masters have the strongest bunch of players, maybe 8 of the 10 best currently active players on WL, and their other players would be at least top 3 in any other clan. They have lost only 9 (!) games in division A, and nothing prevents them from recruiting the best assets of other clans and further their domination in the next 10 CL's. Is this what we want ? All clans fight for 2nd place because CL is a league that Masters win at the end ? I'm not even sure this is what Masters want. So some fixes are needed because there seems to be a problem here. Ofc, we could waste 3 seasons to see if i'm wrong, but with 9 losses so far and members that never leave the clan, I cant see them decline anytime soon. Not saying this is not deserved -their job is absolutely brilliant- but that CL may need to be more challenging and interesting.

Edited 6/7/2017 02:00:58

Some people have some political agendas that they are wanting to achieve. Such as...

Remove EU 3v3 which gameplay is a bit "scripted" and experience effect is strong, so players playing it for years have a strong advantage on others, and you cant fill the gap of experience in a few weeks on this template. Or add wastelands or some cards to make it a bit more exotic and neutral to everyone.

No, You can learn the template and gather experience on it yourself. Adapt , Learn and improve. Besides, This can be made to every template and a idea as "ambitious" as this will have a more negative effect on the league.

General Points:

• The league shouldn't babysit clans for putting out unreliable players who get booted. I believe there should be support networks and ways for clans to reduce boots if they do occur. (Substitutes) . I think the league has done the most that it possible can do in this area and anything more added would nearly promote clans to put in unreliable players hoping they become reliable.
  
• With Alts/Membership this is a product of the clan culture in Warlight. Elite clans have the ambition to become the best and will recruit every possible way to find the best players to become the best clan. It's simple competitive nature. Clan League may be a catalyst to this cycle but it has been here since the beginning of clans just on a bigger scale now.
  
• M'Hunters I understand your pain. I know personally for me I had to put a lot of players who wanted to play Clan League in the subs bench and obviously nobody likes to be subbed. However with GG + GGr , Lynx + 101st . They are technically two clans with seperate identities with their own different forums with their own different communities. Yes the difference is small but this is technically true. So, When we look at the 101st GGr Apprentice line-ups I do honestly feel there's a bit of consistency. I can always know 1 or 2 names that would always be on that line-up. When I contrast this consistency with a M'Hunters B team I just feel there would be a lot of chopping and changing , There would be no consistency. Conclusion being , There's not a high turnover of players between training clans when compared to what I would think it would be in A + B team situation under one clan. Leading to inconsistent line-ups.
  
  
  
  

They have lost only 9 (!) games in division A, and nothing prevents them from recruiting the best assets of other clans and further their domination in the next 10 CL's. Is this what we want ?

Nothing lasts forever m8. This is more of a problem in rl high school tourneys such as "Science Bowl", but not a problem on secondary sources of competative play such as warlight. We can't always be this free forever. The first 7 clan leagues were dominated by APEX and WM. Both clans are effectively defunct at this point. 20 was at one point overpowering, its long gone too. Whose to say a new upstart such as 7th heaven will one day overpower an aging masters. Players retire, new players come in, leaders lose motivation, its what happens. I doubt that Masters will last forever, either.

However, the cycle will always stay the same. Elite clans will poach because they know they can and they will do it. Clan league isn't going to change any of this. If you want this to change, you have to prove it by getting a clan of a more inclusive nature that has elite players to decline these invitations. Its a challenge, but in the end, a challenge I am willing to take up.

Some people have some political agendas that they are wanting to achieve.

Mmmm for the record, I didnt speak as a MH but as a spectator and admirator of CL, suggesting ideas that I personnally feel may improve the league, by making it more fair in every aspect and going further to what I think CL is (should be) about.

I'm aware MH have been struggling on 3v3 EU since the losses of Farah and Smoove, and that we can improve on this template and we are working on it, but please keep in mind I spoke as myself here and not as a member of MH, with my personal point of view on those questions. Another example, I'm pretty sure we won't have boots next season, but I wouldn't like our teams to win games on boots. It's like a Champions League final won thanks to a red card, penalty or referee mistake. I want to see fair play, fair rules and good competition for every clan, not what favours my clan and clanmates.

For EU specifically, I still think this template is unfair to most clans as probably the most technical template that require years of training to reach Masters players level on it. I mean these guys know what difference it makes to pick a spot in 15 instead of 14 for example ! How many players on WL manage so well on this template ? For these guys, EU is like a chess board with 1 efficient set of moves to do every turn and will always find it, and will never (rarely) do a mistake.

Anyway I forgot CL panel offers vote on templates so community decides, this is good enough.

Edited 6/7/2017 11:46:41

Cats is considering joining Clan League 10.

Elite clans will poach

I understand this line of reasoning but I don't think Poaching is a big issues , people move to the clans that best fit there needs. It's natural people move to other clans where they clan mates have similar skills or better as apposed to stagnating as the best or one of few 'decent' players.

"They have lost only 9 (!) games in division A, and nothing prevents them from recruiting the best assets of other clans and further their domination in the next 10 CL's. Is this what we want ?"

High benchmark breeds competition , CL has got more competitive from what I have heard it is rare for people to go 6-0 now

Not using 3v3 europe because it is the most demanding temp skill wise according to you, is such an odd argument since cl is about determining the best strategy clan, so if it really is the most demanding temp it should always be a chosen template.

Also what does unfair mean here? as i understand what your saying it means masters are dominating and that's not unfair that is just because they are the best. Cl is a competition and i think it would beneficial if it stayed that way, and if there was temps not chosen because of the skill needed to play them, i dont see how cl really is a competition anymore

Edited 6/7/2017 16:21:02

I think we should have lotto maps for CL10 - then everyone will have a chance to win!

+1 to suggestion of a clan fielding 2 teams in the league.

For example, if MH or Hydra makes a second team-it will still be better than some clans(from CL performance-say Dark lords or Olympus, not being rude to them/offensive towards them). This will help all clan members to have fun during clan league competition and may help many to improve if they're playing in such events.

Remove EU and replace with... what exactly? We already have a lame template as the secondary 3v3, do we really need to open up another slot for a possibility of Great Lakes 2.0?

I think there was some discussion over having rotating templates - this is especially useful for 1v1s with so many possible templates, lots on ME/MME - but I'm not sure if it applied to 3v3 due to a.) EU being the most popular 3v3 template in CL and b.) not enough good 3v3 templates to choose from. Africa and India were made by Division A clans and tested by Division A clans (I assume for the sole purpose of having more choices for 3v3 templates in CL), so I can agree with the "experience" factor really being prominent in those templates.

If either Africa or India got in (which I would've preferred over RoR), then you could make that argument. But there are already many people who at least have some grasp over EU - there are so many avenues you can take to learn the template. So, I don't buy into the "experience" factor for EU.

This is a very interesting topic with important questions and very good proposals, and many of these issues are not only dedicated to the CL but other competitive events too!

Unfortunatelly, I don't have enough time to write my ideas now so only a quick jaunty reaction ;)

As things stand right now, Masters have the strongest bunch of players, maybe 8 of the 10 best currently active players on WL

I am the only one who feel that this is a strong exaggeration? :O

They have lost only 9 (!) games in division A, and nothing prevents them from recruiting the best assets of other clans and further their domination in the next 10 CL's. Is this what we want ?

My answer is: absolutelly no!
So we need an Antitrust Law againts Masters! Lets divide them 2 or more parts! Truth to the CL community!

Anyway, I think MotD is the real sinner, he run the CL for his own clan, which is dominated the CL (and find out why ONE! run so good? yes, the other sinner is Beren!).
To continue, he did a ladder for himself, MDL is totally dominated by MotD...
Lets bisect him as well! :P

Jokes aside (yes, they were jokes, except we really bisect MotD, Mo and tD would be much better imo ), I totally agree with Aura Guradian: "nothing lasts forever"

And keep the good work guys, the CL never was so interesting and professional than now!

And keep the good work guys, the CL never was so interesting and professional than now!

^ I guess this should be said more often.

When nobody mentions you are doing a bad job. You are usually doing a good job.

I don't understand the argument that limiting templates (btw, we already reduced it by 1 template a couple seasons ago to promote depth), will mean more players CAN play in the CL. Clans can already use 18 players if they want to. Nobody is forcing them to slot people at 3 templates now, they are choosing to.


I agree that less templates allowed means more players MUST play. Is that a good thing? Not sure. If you look at WG, it just means we'll have to add more players from somewhere. That isn't a huge deal, as we are always looking for up and coming talent.

The flip side is that if you have a smaller but really good clan (WM, Apex, 20 in the past), you won't get enough players and you will probably just kill that clan entirely. If the 3-4 still active players want to play in the CL, they will be forced to go somewhere else to play. In past seasons, they just recruited more (like Apex grabbing timon or Beren) to have enough to cover a couple inactive people. But if you force them to add 5-6 new players, then they may just fold at that point. Do you want to kill off clans for the sake of forcing depth?

As it was pointed out, most clans use whatever depth they have already, so why force it? WG has always used everyone who wanted to play. I know GG always has as well. This seems like you are trying to fix something that is not broken.

Masters fielded everyone who wanted to play. ONE, turtles and blitz as well. I don't know about french and lynx for sure, but i think they also used everyone who wanted to play. Out of the A clans everyone except outlaws seems to have fielded all players available.

Also, i'd like to mention that masters don't poach every player we would like to see with us :D not sure if not informed or just jealous. What i know is, that big clans won't benefit from a max 2 tournament/player rule, cause guess where the players the "elite clans" are missing would come from ;)

Also, i'd like to mention that masters don't poach every player we would like to see with us

Only poaching (trying to) some of them?

What i know is, that big clans won't benefit from a max 2 tournament/player rule, cause guess where the players the "elite clans" are missing would come from ;)

Hmmm, so for Masters that would be Apprentice, right?

EDIT: Anyway, I think there are good arguments on both sides here.

Edited 6/8/2017 20:11:22