hmmmm, thought the 4th and 5th candidate part of possibly allowing second member of a clan overruled that.

I don't think the issue is that the players were within the same clans, but having two members that would have a tendency to lean towards outlaws is bad imo.

Like, i don't think people would be comfortable with me and Aura being on that panel together for instance.

-clan history together
-great friends
-more probable to lean in favor of pro-FCC decisions.

That's just my 2 cents though.

About Edge/Tekzen: I would hope everyone votes how they feel about the candidate, irrespective of whether there are 2 members of the same clan or not. If there are 2 very good candidates of a clan (in your opinion), you should give both high scores. Whether or not both end up in the panel should depend only on the last 2 questions. I personally think clan leaders don't do anyone (including themselves) a favour by down-voting someone only based on him being a second candidate from the same clan.

@ what knyte poses: There is only a single interpretation possible of each combination of answers that makes sense. I will not further comment on that for now and we will resolve it as the votes go. The example you call undesirable would be in line with one of such cases. If that's what the clan leaders choose, that's what will happen and it is not undesirable for the clan leaders.

The vote has ended!

Let's welcome the new ethics commitee!
Reza, Edge, Min34, Red Army 39 and psykkoman!

We also voted on two proposals from Audit.
45.8% voted 'Agree' to

"Proposal from audit panel: the 3 candidates with highest scores are always elected; a fourth and fifth member are added if they received at least 50% of the maximum score: "
Pie Chart
https://i.gyazo.com/20b5fd57d1190cb77f5b21ae1ecd80e6.png

45.8% voted 'Agree' to

"Proposal from audit panel: The first 3 elected members should be from mutually exclusive (different) clans. Among a potential fourth and fifth candidate, a second member of each clan is allowed."
Pie Chart
https://i.gyazo.com/96db44ba83edd65e704708073f99d49c.png

The votes for the candidates with the identifying clan tag removed is show here:

   anoncode Edge psykkoman Min34 StarOfTheEast Reza ChrisCMU RedArmy
    01563    2         2     1             2    2        0       2
    05633    3         2     1             3    2        2       1
    12561    2         2     3             1    1        1       1
    19467    2         1     2             1    2        1       1
    26716    3         2     2             0    2        0       0
    26785    3         2     3             1    2        1       2
    29153    3         3     1             0    3        0       0
    34571    3         2     2             0    2        2       3
    50816    0         3     3             1    3        1       3
    55771    3         2     1             1    1        3       1
    56321    3         2     2             3    3        2       0
    59816    3         1     3             1    2        1       1
    64278    3         2     1             3    1        0       3
    66213    0         0     3             3    3        2       0
    73441    3         2     3             2    3        3       2
    76382    3         2     2             1    2        3       1
    77192    2         0     3             0    2        3       1
    78966    0         1     3             3    3        1       3
    81293    2         0     3             1    1        3       2
    81734    3         1     1             1    3        3       2
    87341    3         2     1             1    3        2       3
    89122    0         3     3             2    3        0       3
    94682    3         0     2             1    3        0       3
    96322    2         0     3             2    3        3       1


        proposal3or5    proposalEQorDIFF
01563	Agree	        Disagree: 
05633	Agree	        Agree
12561	Disagree: 	Agree
19467	No opinion	Agree
26716	Agree	        Agree
26785	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
29153	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
34571	Agree	        Agree
50816	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
55771	Agree	        Agree
56321	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
59816	Agree	        Agree
64278	Disagree: 	No opinion
66213	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
73441	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
76382	Disagree: 	Agree
77192	Agree	        Disagree: 
78966	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
81293	Disagree: 	Agree
81734	Agree	        Disagree: 
87341	Agree	        Agree
89122	Disagree: 	Disagree: 
94682	Agree	        Agree
96322	Agree	        Disagree: 

Unused Codes
24199
26710
43512
46931
47991
56144
56388

After the 24 votes we find the following results.

Reza        55
Edge        54
Min34       52 
~~~~~~Top 3 ~~~~
Red Army    39
psykkoman   37 (psykkoman wins tiebreaker 5-6*)
~~~~~~Top 5 ~~~~
ChrisCMU    37
~~~~~~The 50% mark of 36 ( = 24 * 1.5) ~~~~
Star of the East 34

*The tiebreaker determined with me and Audit prior to the vote was:

That we use the following tie-breakers, in order:
* LEAST 0-votes (least opposed)
* MOST 3-votes (most preferred)
* number of clan leaders with head to head different (higher) scores
* TBest decides

Edited 8/17/2018 22:06:49

Who is red army?

Who is red army?

https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=7732083958

Possibly the odd A throwing you off ;) Read his response on the 1st page too, for more info.

Edited 8/16/2018 23:20:00

Sorry, you don't have access to view that discussion.

Was I supposed to be included in this. At this point i don't even know what my job in CL is outside of scorekeeper.

Ups, no I linked to a Mail (his application mail actually) with him, instead of his profile (lol, it;s late my b) Sorry for the confusion. I edited in the correct link.

The Setup is Something like this
Audit - Ethics - Organizers

Organizers is then
Leader/Me
Clot
Div C
Div D
Div E

If things go well, as the organizer of Div C, you don't have to ever interact with anyone else for the rest of CL 10.

Edited 8/16/2018 23:25:10

Nice.

So, will ethics committee deal cases one by one or all at a time?

Red Army was in 101st long before joining FAG.

Edited 8/16/2018 23:33:38

Why did you adopt a policy with less than majority vote %45.8? 12 people voted NOT to expand to 5 members. 11 voted FOR it. Why was that adopted?

Seems like you had a clear line of deliniation as well.

Just cut the panel at the top 3, which were basically unanimous.

Edited 8/17/2018 15:47:48

Well done TBest. Finally we made a serious progress.

Oh, so your tiebreakers are IN ORDER, I see. I thought it was a composite of all of them.

psy had five 0 votes, I had 6. So even though I had more than double his first place votes (and only 1 more last place vote), he gets in because we have 24 clan leaders voting. Many of which have no idea who I am because they have not been part of the clan league for 7 years like I have, running it for 3 of those years and being on the panel for 2 more.

I hate to be snarky, but this is exactly what I thought would happen. We have a bunch of people that don't know the applicants deciding who is best. As I admitted, I don't even know two of the people that made it in, despite being a clan leader for 5 years and also running this league. I am positive that if I laid out all these facts in my application, that I would have been in for sure. But I did not, just to prove a point about the process.

This process should have been about selecting the BEST candidates, not some popularity contest with people that don't even know the applicants.

I really don't understand this process at all. We had a discussion thread on discord about where we are going. Someone closed that thread, and then suddenly there is a forum post about who is running the CL (3 person group?). If you are going to do voting on the panel, where was my vote for who is running it? It didn't feel like we had anything resolved in that channel yet.

This is not meant to be an indictment on any person that is part of running/the panel. In fact, I advocated for many of them publically. My point is simply that we had a big discussion and it appears to be thrown out the window and we just suddenly got to here. It seems like a large part of that community was just ignored, so what was the point of that discussion?

Anyway, good luck to those running it. I will still play and support CL, I value it greatly. I just don't understand how we 'decided' on this process. I don't think I will be participating in it the next time around, I will just be a player from now on.

Edited 8/17/2018 15:19:34

Well... Just few points from me:

We have a bunch of people that don't know the applicants deciding who is best.

Assuming you are right, this is why vote was held the way it is. You had opportunity to introduce yourself to those who don't know you. As everyone else. You didn't used it and therefore you can blame only yourself.
Moreover, I would like to note that all clan leaders contribute to WZ community already, most of them in different ways. If they wouldn't, they wouldn't be clan leaders in the first place.

I really don't understand this process at all. My point is simply that we had a big discussion and it appears to be thrown out the window and we just suddenly got to here. It seems like a large part of that community was just ignored, so what was the point of that discussion?.

I wasn't part of that discord discussion you mentioned, because I wasn't invited. Therefore, I cannot comment on it. I assume the vote was held this way (besides other reasons) so as no part of community could claim they was ignored.

I will not comment on any part of the voting process, because I wasn't amongst those who decided on it. I just assume they had the best interst of CL in their hearts, as I do.

No, apparently they held that vote in a chat game, one I was removed from and did not get to participate in either. I am not saying I would have voted differently, I like all those people they decided in, I am just confounded at not being part of the process.


You are missing my point on the vote. Of course I could have introduced myself and gotten in. I could have spoken about how I ruled against a friend of mine (JSA, who I founded WG with) when he wanted Lynx to get 101st spot in the CL. It would have shown how I regard ethical decisions in the CL higher than a friendship, and ignored any bias I may have had.

I came out openly against that process for a reason. Not because I was lazy and didn't have the time to explain my background. But because IMO (and many others in the process), if people don't know you, why are they deciding on an ethics panel? Any one of us could write some sugar coated explanation and wowed the people that wouldn't know if it was true or not.

I chose to take a stand on how I think the league should be ran. It is more important to me to share my experiences on running the league with those who intend to run it now, so that they may learn from them. If they choose to ignore that advice, that is completely up to them. As I said, if I am wanted, I will help out. But I am not about to compromise my standards for the league to win a vote. I stick by my principles.

I am totally fine not getting in. I knew the way I answered the questions wouldn't sit well with some. I would rather take one for the team and miss out, than to just let a process I thought was very flawed take place without saying anything.

Jesus Chris the Martyr. Thus, thus, thus, dies he for our sins.

Sorry, but I don't know psykkoman or red army enough to trust that they'll use their best judgement on this panel. This process completely scrapped the idea of the best possible panel. Such issues should not be turned into a popularity contest.

24 clans voted and 6 ids were unused. Does this mean there was one clan apart from ACME didn't get a code?

About the voting process I don't quite understand it too: I am not writing this because I am unhappy with panel or the player(s) I preferred are not in panel.

If I split the 24 votes as first half of 24 and second half of 24 , interesting thing I see is

1) Chris gets 3 0's, 5 1's, 3 2's and 1 3 in first 12 ;3 0's, 1 1, 2 2's and 6 3's in second 12. So total score will be 14 in first half of 24 and 23 in second half of 24.

2) Psykkoman gets 0 0's, 2 1's, 8 2's and 2 3's in first 12; 5 0's, 2 1's, 4 2's and 1 3 in second 12. So total score will be 24 in first half of 24 and 13 in second half of 24.

I am writing this as a speculation** based on the vote I made and the position of my vote in the list of 24 votes. So, if I know the position of my vote and where my ID is(I can disclose if TBest+MW+Ko permits)-am I right to say that the first half corresponds to players/clans who know Chris well and more than the second half and they actually preferred Psykko over Chris for other reasons and not for the reason of "not knowing Chris"?.

Now going to tie breaker:

Psykkoman has 5 0's and Chris has 6 0's as a whole, so is it like Psykko= +1 and Chris =0?

Psykkoman has 3 3's and Chris has 7 3's as a whole, so is it like Psykko=0 and Chris =0?

Head to head differences for all votes with Psykko-Chris(first 12-second 12)=sumof(+10-10)=0. so is it like Psykko=0 and Chris =0?

So final tie breaker, TBest decided one of the two, Is it a coin flip here?

P.S: **speculation -speculation means I have no proof, so don't state stupidly that I am writing without proof for creating drama.

Edited 8/17/2018 21:20:22

Why did you adopt a policy with less than majority vote %45.8? 12 people voted NOT to expand to 5 members. 11 voted FOR it. Why was that adopted?

Seems like you had a clear line of deliniation as well.

Just cut the panel at the top 3, which were basically unanimous.

You are right that there where no majority vote for 3 or 5 members. (Or on the whether the clan membership matters). While the biggest percentage was indeed to the 45.8% for the proposal in the vote. I think that picking something other the the proposal would be wrong, as 45.8% did agree to it. However, it might be worth revisiting both of those questions in the future.

While doing top 3 might seem like an easy thing to do, due to the point difference and the support for 3 members in the vote, this would also go ageists the voters who supported 5 players. Also, they did pass the 50% mark.

+1 to the well written comment by psykkoman

No, apparently they held that vote in a chat game, one I was removed from and did not get to participate in either. I am not saying I would have voted differently, I like all those people they decided in, I am just confounded at not being part of the process.

They held a vote indeed in that chat game. If I recall correctly, Reza voted on behalf of WG as you were on vacation. That being said, a player that is invited to a game can chat despite being removed from host (this is a way to get more then 40 players into a chat game and commonly used by the bigger clans). You had the ability to participate there, just like all the other clan representatives.

I am not trying to prove anyone wrong, but just to help clarify any questions. This is not the answers to everything, but it is how I hope that the rest of CL 10 can

psy had five 0 votes, I had 6. So even though I had more than double his first place votes (and only 1 more last place vote), he gets in because we have 24 clan leaders voting. Many of which have no idea who I am because they have not been part of the clan league for 7 years like I have, running it for 3 of those years and being on the panel for 2 more.

The argument regarding tiebreakers is to pick the least opposed candidate, thus hopeful ending up with less drama. Whether the tiebreakers is right or wrong is hard to say. Through it was the one established ahead of time. If two candidates get the same number of votes, one could say after all that they are viewed quite equal. Given that you have been a part of CL in the past, I would think the well-know factor would be in your favor. Through, any such definitive statement is hard to make without interviewing all the 24 voters.

EDIT:

I am writing this as a speculation** based on the vote I made and the position of my vote in the list of 24 votes. So, if I know the position of my vote and where my ID is(I can disclose if TBest+MW+Ko permits)-am I right to say that the first half corresponds to players/clans who know Chris well and more than the second half and they actually preferred Psykko over Chris for other reasons and not for the reason of "not knowing Chris"?.

The number/ID's for the clan is made by me smashing 5 numbers on my keyboard ;) Then, we sorted it according to the number's size, to make it easier to look up before publishing it. This also makes the order of clan random. If you find any meaning in there I will be kinda impressed :P

So final tie breaker, TBest decided one of the two, Is it a coin flip here?

I recon I would get to choose and that there would be a lot of drama then. A better ultimate tiebreaker would perhaps have been a coin flip. Provided you trust the person flipping the coin.

Edited 8/17/2018 22:07:32

@Chris, you're referencing something that happened years ago. As far as I can tell from a brief forum search, over four years ago. My point being that I've played the game for 2+ years seriously, with a good clan, and I don't know your whole story. Your application sucked and your votes suffered as a result, you are not a martyr.

@Super - psykkoman is in CORP, not the Super Cute Marshmallow Gum Drop Warriors. Sorry you don't get all your buddies on the panel. Also, Red Army used to be in 101st, lol.