Emu Pub against Krzystof - https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321457

This game shows exactly why I wanted the China template as a counter balance. Here you make your picks, play 2 turns and then one player surrenders. I'm glad Emu Pub did that well since in the past I have seen some nonsense play from my clanmates on this template.

I believe I can find a bit of rationale in Emu Pubs picks 8 and 9 but still they seem very questionable. I also can't understand why he didn't swap his picks 4 and 5. Everything went Emu Pubs way this game. Overall two good players faced each other here, Krzystof got outpicked in a manageable way, had a bit bad luck, guessed the opponents moves completely wrong and in the end lost the game.

China is a poor template tho Norman... Do you really view it as a good template?

Yes @Norman im a new entry of Warzone’s competition and never in my games lost 2 picks when the match started. I’m not considering the option that i can’t expand in US and I lost the game for that since first turn.

Now I know that and i try to do not commit same errors other times ;) gg for stayles very good player and good luck all for this clan battle guys

China is a poor template tho Norman... Do you really view it as a good template?

Well, first you have to define what defines a bad template.

- I see a template as bad if it has a very dominant first pick and whoever gets it probably wins. I don't believe this is the case here.

- Some see a template as bad if there is no dominant picking strategy which can hardly be countered. This is the stance of players liking the 3v3 Europe template. The 2v2 ladder template is kinda the opposite where there usually is a viable opponent strategy against which your picks are disadvantageous. I believe that this China template there is somewhere in between, but closer to 3v3 Europe. As for myself I can live with templates where it's possible to get super unluckily countered despite being "objectively" the better player.

- I see a template as bad if there is no variation in the expected picks from game to game. I avoid this by having added those 15 wastelands of size 4 here. The goal of those wastelands is to shift the "board weight" from game to game. In this sense I see the 3v3 Europe ladder template as bad.

- What some players can see as problematic here are the +1 bonuses since it's very disadvantagous if the opponent has it and you picked next to it. However then again this would be probably your own fault.

I was thinking about whether there should be 4 or 5 picks in 1v1. 5 picks would make the template more fighting heavy due to easier map coverage however since the Greece template is already so much centered around immediate fights, I wanted a template which offers some possible expansion options.

What also is to be said is, that the then "elite" WarLight oldtimers, way before your and AIs time used to play a lot of 2v2 teamgames on this map. The map was also created by Qi, who used to be one of the very best players. So in other words, the then maybe best player put his thoughts into creating a strategic map and I appreciate his thought process (https://www.warzone.com/Map/8144-China).

Another aspect isn't a matter of whether a template is bad or good but whether it's enjoyable for you as a player. I believe Fizzer understands the mainstream Warzone community correctly in that they want an epic clash between armies with back and forth, crazy maneuvers and in the end there is a winner. Those are the vast majority of the open games and this is also the reason RoR is so popular. On the other side there are the more "elitist" templates where you can more or less reroll after picks since the victor is already decided.

Interestingly I might be the most elitist elitist here since I keep asking my clanmates to stop playing the game but instead just make the picks and then think about how the game was supposed to play out from there. So if you like the Greece template which is decided in the first 1 to 5 turns, you are with me but if you like those epic clashes, you are with 99% of the Warzone population.

I'm playing some Age of Empires II online and there it's the same way. The "mainstream noobs" like to boom up to the Imperial Age and then clash together. The Pros however like those open maps where from the very start you are under pressure and a tiny misplay can cost you the game.

Edited 12/21/2018 09:42:08

But Norman...

I see a template as bad if it has a very dominant first pick and whoever gets it probably wins.

I see a template as bad if there is no variation in the expected picks from game to game.

...this is definetely the case on China much more than on other templates.


China 2v2 is better, a little bit like EU. I played it in CL a couple seasons ago and it was good.

No, I really don't believe this is the case, @AI:

Here for example is one of the still ongoing games where I can see the pick distribution:
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321545

I see lots of great bonuses in which you can place your picks and without a thorough analysis I see some good candidates for first picks but no most obvious one. As long as nobody picked next to an opponent +1 I believe both players should feel quite happy with what they got after picks and have a decent understanding about where their opponent is. Contrary to you thinking about the North being OP I would feel way more pressured about how to attack the opponent in those Eastern Islands. So far the game is already going on for 15 turns, so apparently there is a "real" game happening here.

Edited 12/21/2018 10:12:40

I don't think there is a way to pick around the +1's in the game that you linked...

And you mentioned another point of the template, games can go on forever because you can always try to outexpand your opponent, which usually doesn't work.

I don't think there is a way to pick around the +1's in the game that you linked...

If players keep picking the +1s first, I could just inrease the neutral armies in distribution from currently +3 to, for example, +5 which would be a major shift to the balance. However I can't see a particular +1 as beeing OP here and picking the +1s high also works in 2v2 team games, probably even more than here.

The only thing I'm a little bit worried about when looking at the map is the strength of the eastern islands but then again this somewhat is simliar to 3v3 Europe where you are also in trouble when not having an island spot.

And you mentioned another point of the template, games can go on forever because you can always try to outexpand your opponent, which usually doesn't work.
If you see expanding as a bad thing then just inrease the number of picks. I kept it at 4 here since this is the RoR replacement which got rejected by Platinum. Also you might find this template way more fight centered than you think it is, just that it's not all lost after a completely non skill based 50% chance guess which made Krzystof surrender against Emu Pub on turn 2.

Edit: I remember some of our clan members being quite hyped about a RoR tournament (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17104993). This is a map usually played on 3v3 and well, such games are what the majority of Warzone sees as how the game is supposed to get played. As for myself I stronly disagree with those full distribution no wasteland settings, however this isn't preventing players from having a great time.

Edited 12/21/2018 12:01:49

u all so biased.

RogueNK going 3-0 against aoc? funny joke lol

ai winning against odin? LOL

or georgie winning against muller? :joy:

outlaws wins, but for sure mh will give a good challenge especially with leopard and AJ Chiller. sorry plat, but there are good chances you will lose your battle

Good we have a non-biased - and trustworthy - opinion in here :)

Norman has a lot of opinions, why isn't he playing?

NoName2.1 wins against Stales on China: https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321545

As for the template quality, especially Stales lacked some map coverage after picks, however then again he could have also picked differently. Overall this game proves my thoughts about the map quite nicely. The north which AI apparently sees as OP is easily attakable from reasonable bonuses, especially the +2 in which Stales78 had a presence. On the other hand Stales78 not having an Island presence in the east was far worse giving NoName2.1 uncontested income during the whole game.

Overall there were many mistakes made here, so it doesn't make much sense to go over all the details.

- Comboing the +1 in the north with the piks 3+4 as NoName 2.1 did is far to risky. You should always ask yourself what could go wrong.

- There is no point in hiting a +2 neutral with 1 and taking it the next turn. That way needlessly NoName 2.1 lost an extra arm in Taiwan.

- With 4 picks per player, NoName 2.1 had to pick 8 picks in order to safely not get random spots, not just 6. (2 players, 4 picks --> 2 x 4 = 8)

- Overall NoName 2.1 had a better understanding where his opponent could reasonably be while Stales78 seemed to be almost completely in the dark before they met.

- Stales78 thought he picked bad according to the chat but accutally I see quite some sound thoughts and with his picks and he more or less got it right where the "money spots" are. Losing his spot in the eastern islands was very bad but then again he picked it as number 2 and since he decided to go for the combo in Sichuan he had to pick the +1 as first pick there.

Edited 12/21/2018 17:04:33

georgie wins against Lucien Müller on Greece: https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321515

This game played out remarkably different than the game from Emu Pub against Krzystof (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321457). Emu Pub and Krzystof went 11/ 10 income immediately after first turn while georgie seemed quite satisfied with getting his first income at the second turn. The problem with such an approach is that if your opponent gets his income after the first turn while you don't then it's probably immediately game over on such a limited map.

Edited 12/21/2018 17:50:37

First time playing the China template. Ningxia was a bad 5th pick I thought as there was nowhere really to go after getting it. It was safe but he had the 3 islands safe so that was a big advantage for him. Forbidden city was probably a little early as hebei took too long and he showed up before i got it. Poor job of anticipating his locations overall which started with the picks.

AI is very good he can easily snag a win, maybe even two, against Odin. Rogue is also a stronger solo player, but not team player, compared to aoc (in my opinion anyway). And georgie is a decent player in his own right, though i find it hard to believe he will win all 3.

bias is allowed in clan battles anyway no reason to bash people for it

9. Stales78 vs NoName2.1 (2-1)
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321534
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321537
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321545

Stales wins the first battle of the series! With a victory of 2-1

Outlaws A - 2
M'Hunters - 3

first bias down. stales won against noname.

haha

Stales78 wins against NoName2.1 in Greece (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17321534)

Stales78 says pretty much says everything in chat that I'd lik to add: "Ftb's are key on this one." You can't just go 11-6 income down on first turn and expect to win the game. On this map the first question I would ask myself during the picking stage is what the maximum possible income is after first turn. This was the lowest bracket matchup and I kinda expect the higher the brackets go the closer the players place their picks in order to get that maximum possible first turn income.