All debates on religion are stemming from the root question of: Does God actually exist? After all, if God exists then it is certainly plausible that the Bible is a valid book which contains information from God. (The secondary debate as to whether or not the Bible is a legitimate holy scripture can only exist on the premise that God does in fact exist. Since, there can be no such thing as a holy scripture if there is no God.)

Well then, let's examine our possibilities.

If we assume that God exists, then there is a perfectly logical explanation to absolutely everything. Whether that explanation is based on the Bible, or on the fact that an all powerful diety could cause, create, or do whatever it wanted to (if one sought to discredit the Bible, this remains a resolution under our assumption). However seemingly incomprehendable certain actions or realites may be, under the second explanation, there is still a plausible conclusion to the matter.

If we assume that there is no God, there are an innumerable number of inexplicable realities in our lives. How did the universe come into existence? There is no solid explanation that can be proven, only theories. And, at that, there is no real consensus on any single theory. Why DOES suffering exist and what is the purpose of humanity? Without any greater existence than humanity itself, there is no logical purpose for humanity. Since, if we act for the purpose of ourselves, we eventually die, and if we act for the purpose of our friends, family, or fellow human beings, they too will eventually die. If the purpose of humanity is inevitably and entirely vanishing, is that any purpose at all? And what is the purpose of having the capability of logical and rational thought?

If there is no God, or higher being, then everything must have a purpose and everything must have an answer (whether currently known or unknown.) However, every answer leads to another question. Every purpose is continually greater than the one before it, and there is no end in sight. There are only two possibilities which can end the cycle of questions: 1) is that there is no answer, or that the answer or cannot be known. An answer which is unacceptable if there is an answer or purpose to everything. 2) is that there is a highest purpose which has been determined. In which case, the entity which has decided this highest purpose for humanity must be greater than humanity, and is effectually a god of sorts.

To accept the rationality that there is indeed a purpose, or an answer which is not possible to be known, then it must be concluded that there is a higher entity than human beings, a god of sorts (or God,) that is the creator of a purpose, or of an answer which is incapable of being known by humans.

Basically, if you assume that there is a God, then it is a theory that proves itself, in fact it is impossible to prove otherwise (under this assumption.) And if you assume that there is no God, then in the end you prove that there is infact a higher entity, which at the very least has the characteristics of a god.

This argument is tailored to the very baseline roots of dissension. I realize that there are other valid arguments with differing levels of discussion which have branched off from these roots and are aimed at the nature of God, the results of a godly existence, the validity of the Bible, etc. etc. etc. However, such discussion is not the purpose of my statements, and require an entirely seperate discussion.
Still, I would venture to say that using branches (religious practices and whether or not they actually associate with a religion, or similar such discussion) as premises with which one argue a root issue (the existence of God, or lack there of) is an invalid approach to an issue which does not properly follow the rules of logic.

Hinduism is an excuse that was made a couple of thousand years ago by the Aryans to manipulate the Indians to becoming slaves of Aryan " Priests" and "warriors." My evidence is hinduism popped up right during the aryan invasion of india. How could a couple of thousand beat millions? Become "religious messengers" to the indians. Tell them only aryans can be priests and warriors, the top classes, because " they know the Gods best" truly to keep racial purity, and to conquer the indians without a single death.
Islam beleive it or not, started out as a group of people worshipping a meteor. Should you beleive a meteor worshipper is intelligent? In AD 500 a clever trickster, Mohammed,shared a story with the muslims that sounds a lot similar to the things in a bible made about 1500 years ago. T
Greek and Roman Mythology have no witnesses, as both of the above have no credible witnesses, but unlike others, were created by some bored guy who started making stories, that were accidently picked up as religion, or made by some guy who wanted to fool a whole nation. Roman religion was a copy of Greek religiong, written in Latin.
Buddhism was made in a protest angainst hinduism, because one man saw the truth behind buddhism, and realized it was made to fool his people. Buddha was not to be worshipped, according to his ideas, but his ideas a way of life.
Jewdaism is a halfway part of christianity.
Science says we're all created by dust that somehow formed of nothing and somehow exploded from nothing somehow making life. Love to hear how that works out in a science experiment. It says we somehow were changed from ape to caveman to person, and that for over 25million years humans were so stupid they didnt know how to read, write, record or communicate.
Your left with christianity and atheism, a religion that says lets just live life. If I was an atheist my motto would be " Whose gonna judge us with we make 20 ladies pregnant." Christianity makes sense, and has credible witnesses, and was even recorded in fragments of roman history.

Wow... tomahawk and reddawg.... you two are perfect examples of the clueless ignorant Christian.

You're not even worth the time it would take to pick apart your posts and disprove almost every point you made.



Honestly, sometimes I wish that I could just live and be content with such a limited understanding of the world

@ reddawgs98 You dont see signs saying Christians are evil and kill christians around your town, or a government trying to disprove Christianity in Senate meetings, do you?

Actually, in some countries, you WILL see these actions. Not in most of the countries, but in some.

And well said reddawgs98.

@Devilnis
the site you gave extracted some context and concepts about the bible and gave proof that these context and concepts are found in other religious text long before Christianity was formed. Most of these are extracted from the new tastament, and aimed at Jesus.

In order to proceed to my defense, you have to understand there are three parts to the Christian God, father, son, and holy spirit, and they are one and only GOD. Also, God is static, he never changes. Jesus didn't come to the world to change things, but to fulfil the commandments and the old testament (Romans:4). Jesus never brought any new ideas about God. (if you want further explanation, read the bible, and you will understand). This is why nothing in the Old Tastament can be contradicted in the New Tastament. They are the same God. Most of the actions of Jesus was prophesized in the Old Tastament, thus, Jesus healed the blind, born of a mortal woman and etc were to fulfil the prophesies. Now the Jews believed in the Old Tastament long before most of the religions and myths mensioned on the site even existed, thus, it may rather seem to me, that other religions borrowed prophesies from the old tastament instead of the other way around. "Christianity is based on the claim that the historical Jesus of Nazareth was also the supernatural Christ, the Saviour. This claim is in turn based on Jewish understandings of the meaning of the Hebrew term Messiah, which, like the Greek "Christ", means "anointed". " (wikipedia). The difference between jews and Christians is that Jews are still waiting for that messiah or christ to arrive, while Christians believes Jesus is that one.

The site also mensioned some Egyptian myth/religion, which may be comparable with the old tastament in date. That can be largely contributed by events listed in Genesis and Exodus. If you read it, you will understand why Egyptian myth/religion is so much similar with Christianity and Judaism.

@ Acewindu
Jesus is the Christian God, he, the Father and the Holy Spirit are one. Thus, the God in the Old and New Testaments are the same. Therefore, the complete bible is in fact the word of Christ, both old and new. (please note, that there is a branch(s), I think the Jehovah's witnesses, of Christianity that disagree with this, but I wrote according to Protestant beliefs)

Also, I agree with you that if you ask about Catholics about their belifs, you might get 100 differnt answers. Just like you can describe an elephant using 100 differnt adjectives. Certain issues can be compromised I agree. HOwever, the core issue cannot be compromised, like if you deny Jesus Christ as your saviour, then you cannot possibly be christian or catholic.

The core difference between Muslim and Christianity (based on my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) is that Muslim denies Jesus's death. The Father God is the same (pretty much qu'ran and the old tastament is identical), but with differnt names. Muslims consider Mohammed to be the centre prophet, and in ways take up the position Jesus takes in Christianity.

|> Sciences goal is to disprove Christianity in school.

The goal of science is to figure out how the world works. Such a hostile attitude is not very fruitful.

|> In Earth and space class you learn that some how a clump of DUST made life.

How is that less plausible than life being created by god? After all, at least we know for sure dust exists...

|> In life science you learn the meaning of a species is to reproduce to create another generation DO WE LIVE TO DIE?

That's a rather pessimistic way of looking at it. I prefer "the goal of any life form is to continue the existence of the species".

---

|> If we assume that there is no God, there are an innumerable number of inexplicable realities in our lives. How did the universe come into existence? There is no solid explanation that can be proven, only theories. And, at that, there is no real consensus on any single theory.

Just because something cannot be proven does not make it untrue. Take (the existence of) god for example...
Also, it seems you have an issue with "how did the universe come into existence". If you cannot accept the fact that science currently hasn't got the vaguest clue what happened before the big bang (*if* that actually is how the universe began) and think it's a much nicer explanation to have god create the universe, then I have a question for you: where did god come from?

|> Without any greater existence than humanity itself, there is no logical purpose for humanity. Since, if we act for the purpose of ourselves, we eventually die, and if we act for the purpose of our friends, family, or fellow human beings, they too will eventually die. If the purpose of humanity is inevitably and entirely vanishing, is that any purpose at all? And what is the purpose of having the capability of logical and rational thought?

So essentially your answer to the question "why do you believe in god?" is "to give my life meaning"? Fair enough, good answer.
I am wondering though what makes you so sure there even is a purpose; how do you know? Also, it's not just about our friends and family, it's about our children (well, in the grand scheme of things; I bet there's a bunch of people here who don't have children yet). The circle of life: everyone takes care of their children, their grandchildren, if medical technology advances a little more, their great-grandchildren. But they in turn they care of *their* children, so indirectly, we're taking care of the entire future of the whole human race!
The purpose of having logical and rational thought might very well be to figure out how this world works (yes, that means science). And we'd better hurry, because in the grand (and I really mean *grand*) scheme of things, our purpose on this world might be to figure out how to get off of it; current estimates give us four billion year (give or take a couple hundred million) before the sun burns out and we don't want to watch it happen from Earth. So, we'll have to relocate all of humanity (and preferably the flora and fauna too) to somewhere else. Called it the second Noah's Ark if you will, but if you want a purpose, that should be a nice one.

@ Tacticus - an example of a group that gives Christianity a bad name would be the West Baptist Church, who keep holding signs that say "God hates f@gs" etc.

Kanuck made me watch forum.
Here my first and the latest post.
SUNNI ISLAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tillich

http://urlybits.com/2012/01/god-hates-figs-2/

Click for awesome!

|>If there is no God, or higher being, then everything must have a purpose and everything must have an answer (whether currently known or unknown.)

Does it? The purpose of life is the continuation of itself and nothing more as far as I can see and believe me, it wasn't easy for me to accept that. I don't see any greater purpose beyond this. For me, that essentially boils down to no purpose at all for individuals in this world.

|>There are an innumerable number of inexplicable realities in our lives. How did the universe come into existence? There is no solid explanation that can be proven, only theories.

And how exactly are you able to differentiate between the unexplained and the unexplainable? You just cherry-picked gaps in human knowledge and then claimed that these things cannot be explained. **You don't know that**. In the future these things may be explained. You cannot know what is unexplainable until you have explained everything that can be explained. And the human race certainly hasn't done that yet.*

I think you need to review your "logic" with all due respect, your conclusions seemed to be sought before you began towards an answer.



*Sorry for all the 'explain' :P

@RvW
That is exactly my point. If people are willing to accept the theory of a big bang, then where did the big bang come from? If an answer is found to that, then the question continues again, and again, and again. Until an answer is found then there is no end. If an answer IS found which proclaims an end, then a higher entity is found.
(Also, using a less scientific approach, if people are willing to accept the theory of a big bang which has not been fully explained, then that makes it just as possible for the existence of God which has not been fully explained.)

I am assuming that there is a purpose; because, quite literally, if we have no purpose, then there is no purpose to anything that we're doing and all actions, debates, or anything else is pointless.

If the purpose is to take care of the entire race, that also is pointless. Every single human will eventually die (not necessarily all at once, or at the point of extinction... although that is possible and makes this purpose even further pointless.) Even so, if we are the highest beings (which must be the case if our purpose is to take care of eachother) then for what reason do we take care of eachother? Why not simply take care of ourselves? And, what makes any action we take "wrong?"



@Ace Windu

Yes, that is the logical conclusion. Either there is a higher entity, or there is no purpose at all.

My point was that not only is it not explained currently, but if it were to be explained it would then lead to another unexplained question. And, if that question were to be explained, the process would continue on for infinity. If there was any answer which could halt the process, that answer would be a higher entity (not necessarily God, although in my -opinion- it would be some sort of god.)

If you are referring to even further down in my statements, as to how something can be unexplained, I was taking on the assumption that something could not be explained; because, as stated above, explanations lead to other questions and there are only so many ways to end a ceaseless cycle, one being an unexplainable occurence.

@ Imagination: You assume we have a purpose for no reason other than having no purpose does not appeal to you.

I'd like you to explain why the process of explaining things would continue on into infinity unless there is a god, rather than just state that that is the case.

|>There are only so many ways to end a ceaseless cycle, one being an unexplainable occurence.

And the other ways are?

I am not entering the debate on the validity of religion or the existance of deities, however a friend and I thought up something very interesting.

If God is portrayed as the creator of the universe and thus the human species in the christian religion, which makes him the father of all humans. Also Jesus is said to be the son of God and manifestation God on earth. If God is the father of Mary, and Mary is the mother of Jesus, it would mean that God impregnated his own daughter with himself [Gross].

I would LOVE to read your comments.

it is impossible to keep up with this thread wish i could just respond to all this questions also lykus seems like the point of this all thread is to make Christians looks bad

@EVERY BODY

this is just bullshit

EVOLITON NO

GOD CREATED US YES


are you idiots...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Musilim is the one and true religon

Wow lykus. Disprove my poits, love to hear how well you can, or if you are just making a pathetic comeback... your the perfect example of those who cant be conivnced, although I seriously doubt anyone can change their minds off a computer post. **Did you create the post to insult our beleifs, or because you thought it would be hilarious?** Most "american christians" arent even the right view of christians, and go to church on sunday, just to be no different than you or I . They ignore christian ideas, even though they claim to be one. To explain on school propoganda, *you spend more time in the books talking about how wrong religion is then you do even learning it.*

It probably wasnt the best idea for our founding fathers to make us a multiracial, multireligional nations, becuase we end up with discussions like this and *one viewed guys like lyukus* but our leaders didnt think we'd have so much beleifs that people canned them all **without reading only the first sentence**
*Lyukus can call me shallow, but in the end he is the shallow one, for just dissing everybodies explanation after not even finishing the first paragraph. You start to wonder did this one viewed person just create the post to can Christianity. If he doesnt listen to ecplanations, its obvious he made it to insult.* ** Lyukus is the classic example of a bigot, unopen to explanations, but is fine with himself. He pictures himself as open, but he is a shallow person not open to opinion.**

|>CHRISTIANS ARE GIVEN A BAD REP

look at that, only had to read 6 words.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/30/study-explores-distrust-o_n_1120869.html

http://www1.umn.edu/news/news-releases/2006/UR_RELEASE_MIG_2816.html


People like you are not worth my time. Your opinions about me are meaningless. Go have fun with your life full of blissful ignorance.

I'm an atheist and I don't agree with Catholicism especially american catholic groups but I have many friends who are catholic who are really nice people so it really does is the person,the way they were brought up and their parents that make the difference

fuck reddawgs98