|> Please note that the old testament, with all the "(blah blah blah) shall be put to death" have been overthrew with the arrival of Jesus (See Romans:4) Thus, this law only applied to the Jews 3000 years ago.

Thanks for the update, didn't know that.

|> That's the oppinion of at least 10% of the world.

Once upon a time it was the opinion of 100% of the world that Earth is the center of the universe. Doesn't make it true...

|> Gay is unnatural, just as murder, adoltery, false testomonies and all other sins. However, just like animals, all these sins occur everyday for as long as there were humans. Thus, to the world, gay is in fact natural.

What is your definition of "unnatural"? Because if you mean it doesn't happen in nature, that's simply not true. For most sins I might agree, but there's a few exceptions. You can argue about adultery (since animals don't marry, they cannot commit adultery), but then again, Christianity considers polygamy a sin as well, right? So let's substitute that; there's plenty of animals who are polygamous, proving that polygamy (and, by extension, adultery sort of too) is in fact very natural.

Also, there seems to be a problem with your reasoning. It looks like it condenses to "sin is unnatural, however all sins occur everyday, thus they are natural"...!?

|> The reason why God is against Gays are the same why he is against all other sins.

That doesn't help, I want to know why it's a sin, once you explain why it is, then the "being against it" follows easily enough. (Note I say "explain", not "convince", since that's extremely unlikely to happen.)

|> Another explanation is when Jesus heals a blind man. According to Jewish beliefs (..) when a man is blind, crippled or have any other defect, it's due to sin. Thus Jesus's disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parrents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "Neither this man, nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." Then Jesus heals him.

So essentially he is flat out contradicting (his!) Jewish beliefs. But if those Jewish beliefs (also stemming from a holy book) are deemed incorrect by Jesus, how can we be sure Christian beliefs will not at some point be contradicted? How do we know that tomorrow god won't send Jesus to Earth again for an update of the bible?

as for the gay being "unatural part" I meant that today, in this world, it is natural (and I actually did state that) but however, according to the bible, all sin are unatural, because originally, in the garden of eden, there were no sin. Also, as I said before, Gay is sin doesn't matter whether animals do it, animals also murder, and don't go to church, which are also considered as sin. (Deuteronomy:5) (Note i strickly use the bible definition)
Why god is against gay, well, God creates Eve from the ribs of Adam, and Eve is Adam's wife, and they are one. (Genisis:2) "the man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman' for she was taken out of man.' For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genisis:2:23-24). This explains why a man must marry a woman. Also, one of the commands God gave (Genisis:1:28) was "be fruitful and increase in number" which means reproduce, and homosexuality does not fulfil this. I don't think this will satisfy much people, but this is the best I've got, sorry. :( I actually don't know much about homosexuality and the bible.
note, the only evidence found that God condemns sinners are found in Leviticus:18 (Old tastament). Jesus in the New Testament never stated anything about homosexuality, therefore, we take it that the old commandment still stands, and that homosexuality is a sin. However, Jesus removed the death penalty, and said he will be the ultimate judge.

As for "That's the oppinion of at least 10% of the world", I was responding to "it was your opinion".

your last question, Jesus came to the world to free people from the commandments (Romans:4) thus, he overriden most of the Old Tastament commandments, (Judaism believes in the old tastament) that's why most Pharasees and the Jewish high priests condemned Jesus. Eventually putting Jesus to death. He did not contradicted the old tastament. He fulfilled them. all those "(blah blah blah) shall be put to death" laws are fulfiled with the death of Jesus. When Jesus died, he took up the sins of all on himself in order to save the world. (Romans:4:25 and Romans:6)

note, the only evidence found that God condemns gays (not sinners, I made a typo, sorry) are found in Leviticus:18 (Old tastament). Jesus in the New Testament never stated anything about homosexuality, therefore, we take it that the old commandment still stands, and that homosexuality is a sin. However, Jesus removed the death penalty, and said he will be the ultimate judge.

|> according to the bible, all sin are unatural, because originally, in the garden of eden, there were no sin

Meh, that would make using a computer (or wearing clothes, for that matter) a sin as well. I really hope "anything that didn't happen in Eden" is not god's definition of sin, because then we're all in trouble.

|> animals also murder

Animals may kill, but they don't murder. For something to be murder (using the legal definition) requires something called "premeditation" or "[malice aforethought](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought)" (thank you Wikipedia, I didn't know the English phrase), which animals are incapable of.

|> Also, one of the commands God gave (Genisis:1:28) was "be fruitful and increase in number" which means reproduce, and homosexuality does not fulfil this.

According to that logic staying single would also be a sin. That doesn't sound right. Also, it's pretty harsh on people who were born (or have become, through any means other than free will, such as a bad accident) infertile...

Besides, give the bio tech engineers a little more time and they might very well solve that issue! To illustrate, it's already possible to fertilise one egg with DNA harvested from another egg, giving a lesbian couple the possibility to have children without a single man involved (well, once that treatment becomes legal to use on humans at least, and if you can find enough female lab techs of course :p ). A definition of "sin" which depends on the current state of technology seems a little strange (I mean, gluttony will always stay a sin right, no matter the advances in dietary programs?)...

|> I don't think this will satisfy much people, but this is the best I've got, sorry. :(

I still appreciate the effort. Besides, since I disagree with the bible / Christians on this subject, the better your answer would be, the worse it would be for me. ;)

|> As for "That's the oppinion of at least 10% of the world", I was responding to "it was your opinion".

gmoney5616: god is real if you dont believe then when you die god sends you to hell

KGB138 (KGB): That is YOUR opinion.
--> I'm reasonably sure this is intended as "that has never been proven".

AquaHolic: That's the oppinion of at least 10% of the world.
--> While you are correct (probably way more than 10% in fact), it doesn't change anything about the "that has never been proven" implication.

---

Thank you for giving a reasonable response, without shouting or other unpleasantries. I still don't agree but hey, at least you've very thoroughly proven Lykus prejudice against Christians / religious people wrong, that's gotta count for something! :)

Prejudice is an opinion that is based on neither reason or experience. Thats not what I have.

And even if i did, you can't prove an opinion wrong.


I never gave reasoning's to my opinions, and i don't plan to. An argument like that is never productive.


This thread wasn't to share my thoughts or force them onto you. I just wanted to give a brief overview of myself before asking anyone else to share. Clearly, it was poorly phrased and just about everyone got the wrong idea, but that's just what i get for not re-reading anything I write.

|> I never gave reasoning's to my opinions, and i don't plan to. An argument like that is never productive.

Come again...? How is it not productive to give reasons, to explain where your opinion is coming from? It's surely better than not giving reasons!?

|> Clearly, it was poorly phrased and just about everyone got the wrong idea, but that's just what i get for not re-reading anything I write.

There might be a lesson in there somewhere...

Lykus, your opinions are prejudice, because you judge the whole based on your experience on a few..

that's like saying that all Warlighters are Pedantic, merely by reading my posts. Rude, Illogical, and not necessarily True.
Opinions can be wrong, depending on what the opinion is of.. and the *worst* kind of opinions are the ones without reasoning.. Personally, I will respect anyone their opinions and belief's so long as they have a -*in their mind*- Legitimate reason for it...

"In my opinion, your face is ugly... no.. not gonna say if it's the scar, the mole, the crooked nose, or the teeth.. just gonna say it and leave it be"

You asked for us to share our "thoughts and opinions" on religion, and then we did in great detail. The reason why religious debates are frowned upon in general, and tend to lead into "poorly backed arguments" is because of answers like the one you gave...
How are you going to claim others give poorly backed arguement behind a topic that is entirely opinionated, while you give -no- backing to your arguement because it's your opinion..? If you were so concerned about the productivity of these threads, then you likely shouldn't of started them.. I understand, naturally, people want to understand how others think, and that can be a great interest to why others choose the religion they do.. but you obviously have no interest in understanding what people believe, or why they believe it, and just used that as a guise for belittling a religious group that you find particularly annoying.


prej·u·dice
[prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing.
noun
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.


o·pin·ion
[uh-pin-yuhn] Show IPA
noun
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

Opinion Example

"*In My Opinion, the CEO of Mcdnalds is a poor poor man*" ~Bill Gates

now let's change the word Opinion to *personal view*

"*In My Personal View, the CEO of Mcdonalds is a poor poor man*" ~Bill Gates

now let's look at it from a universal standpoint

Bill Gates Value = $61B
Mcdonalds CEO yearly compensation = 17m
Median Household Income *-US-* = $51,914

now, Bill gates opinion in this fictitious scenario would be correct from his -personal view- but wrong in truth... thus his opinion is wrong.

Jesus ftw. and its funny how everyone is ignoring him.

lykus i base my beliefs on the new testament because jesus is our lamb and he has changed those laws do you know of mary of madgalane she was a protistute and pople were stoning her but jesus saved her he said whoever that has commited a sin here stone her and no one could so the beliefs of the old have been re written

also what are arguing about this thread is messed up perhaps lykus you should have put a better title also rvw i meant to say the pope made the jews captured the pope back then got rid of the information of 1500 years and more

can't read most of this but iwill be here all day so please at the ned of your post can you round up of what you said for my sake

if only the bible taught you as much about grammar and punctuation as it did about whatever the hell you were talking about.

about

But what if murder was no sin? Maybe we're trapped in the biblical view of ending someone's life being horrible, but why is exactly? I know plenty of benefits. (e.g. help stop overpopulation, and you should be happy that somebody is going to heaven! (In either Buddhism or Hinduism (I forgot which) you are reincarnated to a higher caste if you have lived a good life.))

|> prej·u·dice
[prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing.
noun
1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

Isn't it strange the first item lists "unfavourable" as a property, then the second item specifically mentions "either favourable or unfavourable"? Also, what is even the difference between an "opinion formed without knowledge" and a "preconceived opinion"...? In other words, does "Swedish girls are *hot*" count as a prejudice or not? :p

---

|> But what if murder was no sin? Maybe we're trapped in the biblical view of ending someone's life being horrible, but why is exactly?

Last I checked just about any civilisation considers murder to be a pretty bad thing. Sure, there have been a few that just loved a good human sacrifice (Mayas, Incas) or that didn't much care about human lives (the Romans with their gladiators), but those are exceptions. Also, in most cases it was prisoners of war, conquered people or slaves who got killed; civilisations sacrificing "their own people" are pretty rare.

|> you are reincarnated to a higher caste if you have lived a good life

If you don't murder them just yet, you give them another chance to live a good life; killing them right away takes away their chance (or at least greatly shortens it) to earn reincarnation into a higher caste. That's still a pretty bad thing to do.

@Aqua: Pretty much the generic argument against Christians, but why do you believe it all?

How do you know it wasn't just a very intelligent, power hungry man who realized how gullible people are?

I dont understand why people need religion. Well, I understand why, but it just doesnt make sense. Aren't you sercure enough about yourself, to make decisions without consulting the bible, or the quaran. We as, humans should be pure enough to do whats right.

Hey Lykus, still believe in your opening statement? "Most of you here are pretty smart... and it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts and opinions on religion."