After the template pool question we should decide on the exact ban/pick phase too.
Regarding the ban/pick phase there are two questions:
- QUESTION 1: Even or odd number of templates should we use in the template pool?
- I proposed even number because of the balance for ban/pick steps.
- In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 1
- Player A picks 1 (game 1)
- Player B picks 1 (game 2)
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 2
- Player B bans 1
- Player A picks 1 (game 3)
Rento summed up very well why this version is balanced, so I just copy his post
Being first to pick/ban is a disadvantage. If you pick the template your opponent wanted to pick, you're doing him a favor and he can pick/ban his 2nd choice. So it's better to move second.
But: choosing the final templates clearly is an advantage for the first player. So all in all, it balances very nicely. Letting the seeded player choose if he wants to go first or second is a great idea.
So Player A has got one more pick, this is true, but Player B can have more, if Player A choose 1-2 templates what Player B wanted too, so actually Player B will have additional ban/pick steps in this way. And don't forget, Player A will choose only between the last two remained templates, and Player B already vetoed out the templates what he wanted, and the last two remained should be the most neutrals for both players, so not a very big advantage.
The odd number of templates version, proposed by s1gmoyd (as is in the CS:GO):
- In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 1
- Player A picks 1 (game 1)
- Player B picks 1 (game 2)
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 2
- Player B bans 2
- Player A picks 1 (game 3)
I just now realized, that s1gmoyd changed his eariler steps, and now actually Player A can pick the last map from the two remained ones in his version too, as in my proposal. I changed s1gmoyd's step orders because for easier comparability.
So the only difference is the one more template in the pool, and thus Player B has got equal ban/pick steps than Player A.
So in both versions Player A has a disadvantage (first to ban/pick) and an advantage (choose the final template from the last two remained). But with odd number of templates, Player B will have same ban/pick steps as Player A, while even number of templates, Player A will have one more step than Player B. So the question is, how big a disadvantage to be first? For balance it enough if the first player (Player A) can choose from the last two remained templates? Or for the balance need additionally that the first player (Player A) has one more step than the second player (Player B)?
In the other hand, for the 13th template likely need an additional voting (or I simple choose China as I wrote in the other topic). So the other question is, how big the difference between the odd and even number version at all? Worth it to find that 13th template?QUESTION 2: Less suffering or preferring the favorite templates?
- Less suffering (suffering means playing on hated (not very liked) templates)
In this case, players will have more ban steps before the pick steps, so they can veto out the hated (not very liked) templates, and only (likely) neutrals template will be picked (however, this also means that all favorite templates likely will be vetoed!)
Here is the most extreme example, where first only ban steps, and playing on the remained 3 templates (bo3 format)
- In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 3
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 1
- Player B picks 1 (game 1)
- Player A picks 1 (game 2)
- 1 template is left over (game 3)
In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 3
- Player A bans 3
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 1
- Player B picks 1 (game 1)
- Player A picks 1 (game 2)
- 1 template is left over (game 3)
But of course, can be less ban steps before the first two pick steps (it depends on the target "suffering level")
Preferring the favorite templates.
In this case, players will possible to choose their favorite templates earlier than those would be vetoed.
Here is the most extreme example, where players can choose immediately their most favorite templates, and only the last deciding template will be chosen by ban steps.
- In the first round (RO16) - in case of 12 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A picks 1 (game 1)
- Player B picks 1 (game 2)
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 3
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 1 (= picks the game 3)
- 1 template is left over (game 3)
In the first round (RO16) - in case of 13 templates in the pool
- The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).
- Player A picks 1 (game 1)
- Player B picks 1 (game 2)
- Player A bans 1
- Player B bans 3
- Player A bans 3
- Player B bans 2
- Player A bans 1 (= picks the game 3)
- 1 template is left over (game 3)
So this question is about where the first two pick steps should be positioned?
Avoid suffering or preferring favorite templates?What I proposed originally is after two ban steps. Because in this case, the players can veto out their most hated template, but only one, so still possible to choose a favorite (ok, not the most favorite but still liked enough) template. And with only two ban steps, we save time as well, I mean after the two ban steps, players can choose their 1-1 pick, after that I can create the first two games, and the fight can start (and parallel the players can carry on the additional ban steps, until the deciding template was chosen).
While if we have many ban steps first, then we have to wait while all ban steps over, so not optimal.Ok, these are the two questions. I am waiting for your opinions, proposals before I create a voting for find the answers.
Thank you very much for your time and help in advance.
