TIO, the person currently putting things together for them was neither the primary or secondary contact btw. Which makes me want to be a bit more lenient, because it wasn't his fault. He was asked in a game why BR wasn't playing, and had no clue that their managers hadn't gotten it all together.

A few things.

First, this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's more fun if people get to play than if they don't.

Second, the deadlines were right around Christmas. Many people don't check WL as much around the holidays, so it's easy to miss deadlines.

Third, this isn't necessarily a play/don't play dichotomy. Cowboy could allow them to play but with a points deduction if people believe they got an advantage by submitting a lineup after other teams had public lineups.

Fourth, CL is run for free by volunteers. If people are making things more difficult for the organizers, the organizers are under no obligation to accommodate them or let them play.

I mostly agree with Beren's points and wanted to add my own.

1) On rules being determined ahead of time versus rulings made on the fly. Any leadership position should do the best to anticipate situations, but then adjust things when new situations show up. I think Cowboy has done a good job of balancing these two things, and he does all of this just because he wants to.

2) On Fudew being allowed to play. Personally I'd be ok with either ruling and would if my clan was playing in D. Deadlines are deadlines, and missing them should be able to disqualify a clan. That said whoever sets the deadline has the ability to apply leniency at their discretion.

3) On gaming lineups. Yes this makes a big difference. That said I'm not certain a clan that is disorganized enough to miss a deadline is organized enough to game theory a lineup.

I will start off by saying that if I was the one making the decision, I would allow this clan to play, for reasons given above that I find no need to repeat. However, I think we should avoid bashing players like Bonsai and co. who raise their concerns in a relatively respectful manner. While the decision is ultimately up to (Cowboy/Clan League Panel/Audit Panel/Ethics Panel/whoever gets the last override), I think that it is important that we appreciate these other perspectives and avoid trying to silence them in favor of the prevailing opinion.

You've got two options here. Be autocratic or democratic.

Autocratic = Let Cowboy make the move. He has the most information and insights to this issue then all of us so you could trust him to make a judgement with the governmental departments of the audit/ethics panel. To "keep him in check".

Democratic = Cowboy gets the Division leaders, outlines the situation in a neutral way that simply illustrates the facts and situations. Conduct a vote, let the leaders of the competitive clans decide on the following.

1. Let Fudew Play
2. Let Fudew Play but sacrifice one of their slots for a 0-6 loss on a 1v1. (-18 points, +3 for everyone else).
3. Don't Let Fudew Play at all.

I think the most probable outcome regardless if it's autocratic/democratic is that Fudew is allowed to play with no consequences because I don't think they're a serious clan that would push it this far to get some secret advantage in Division C/D/E... It's a bit hard to believe.

I stand corrected Cowboy. Sounds like you did strong work checking.

I am comfortable with whatever he decides and won't complain.

Another option is poll the clans in that division.

(These are my opinions and not necessarily the CL Panel's)

First, this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's more fun if people get to play than if they don't.

While I agree, there were clear deadlines set. Wanting to compete in a league comes with a very small responsibility of being able to communicate a roster and a lineup. This is a very minimal requirement which they failed to meet.

Second, the deadlines were right around Christmas. Many people don't check WL as much around the holidays, so it's easy to miss deadlines.

The deadlines were around Christmas, yes. But, the actual deadline being around this time doesn't mean this was the only time to submit anything. They've had a rather large timeframe to submit it. They've also been contacted and have chosen to ignore our messages.

Third, this isn't necessarily a play/don't play dichotomy. Cowboy could allow them to play but with a points deduction if people believe they got an advantage by submitting a lineup after other teams had public lineups.

This is correct and I agree. I think we need to consider what kind of precedent it will set. Allowing them to play without any penalty may seem fine in this specific case (and I would agree if this was on a case to case basis), but we have to consider the consequences of our decision, as people will always grab onto past decisions to pressure a future decision be pushed into their advantage.

Fourth, CL is run for free by volunteers. If people are making things more difficult for the organizers, the organizers are under no obligation to accommodate them or let them play.

While true, the converse is also true. If a clan breaks a rule and it's easier to ignore that for the organization, it sets a bad precedent.

All in all, I would like BR Fudew to be able to participate, but it would not be without at least a penalty as they broke a rule and clearly ignored messages from the organization. If they really wanted to play and compete, they should've read the rules and our messages. It's like the Terms of Service nobody reads but still agrees to. If they still want to play, they should be given a penalty for disobeying said ToS and it'll be Cowboy having to accommodate them even playing.

Edited 12/26/2019 23:53:08

The CL Panel taking over the template pruning process was setting a bad precedent, but that didn't seem to worry you at the time.

Cowboy I thank you very much for the opportunity to attend your event, for your commitment to help us and also for the notice to register.

Wow! I really am very sad and frustrated to see so much lie about our clan and clan leaders ...
That was very childish.

It is my first contact with this league event and I am obliged to witness this type of slander.

It's too lazy to argue.
But I will just leave a few points for reflection.

1- We must first have union and fun.
I play warzone a little over a year ago.
If I wanted competition I wouldn't be here.

2- Our clan has over 50 players and unfortunately only 6 were able to participate.
The rest did not enter because they did not have time to dedicate themselves to the event.
Really everyone knows that in Brazil things are complicated.

3- They called us cheaters without having to prove it.
Slanderers should be expelled from the event.
To err is human, so this first time I will forgive.
If it occurs again, I will forward via report and request action for the ADM of the game.

4- About winners and losers ...
I don't care about losing or winning.
I am neither the best nor the worst.

I used duel maps to release level 60 so I could create matches with everything you could use in the game.
Does that make me a cheater?
Answer: No!
I say that makes me "Uncle END".
Uncle who creates various types of games, events and different tournaments to entertain people more and more.

I create events for players from my clan and also for external players who speak Portuguese.
What I like most is having fun with people.

Let's stop this childishness, because we are not politicians to debate for such insignificant issues.

A big hug from "Uncle End" to all.
A wonderful new year with peace, health and prosperity.

Note: Text translated by google. Sorry for any errors.

@tio

It has less to do with the fact that you're cheating, and more to the fact, something like this could be used to cheat.

Clans can use lineups already given by others to match make and gain an unfair advantage.

@cowboy

I appreciate your concern and commitment.

However it is frustrating to see such slander without proof.

so if I understand good I want to say "welcome other time FUDEW :D" will be a nice division without dubs

You're not being accused of cheating; there's deadlines that are specified in the rules (which you have access to) and you missed the deadlines. Common sense tells that you're not abusing the system to gain an unfair advantage, hence there's no cheating accusation. The only problem is that allowing you to play without any form of penalty can set a bad precedent, hence the discussion. Nobody is slandering you.

The CL Panel taking over the template pruning process was setting a bad precedent, but that didn't seem to worry you at the time.

It did, but we weighed our decision.

Clans can use lineups already given by others to match make and gain an unfair advantage.

This would need quite a complicated optimization algorithm which needs certain data nobody can feed the algorithm reliably with. If done right the results should be pretty much non existant and if done wrong people play settings they aren't comfortable with.

At least the CL management of my clan is more concerned with kicking my mates in the butt in order to play some games rather than obsessing over the lineup of the other clans.

People are seriously overestimating the potential benefit of knowing other clans' lineups before making your own. In the absolute best case it's not worth more than 5 points in terms of expected value, and really it's negligible relative to the overall volatility of WL games in general and CL in particular.

The only reasonable arguments against letting them play are if we think this will encourage clans to disregard deadlines and make everything slower than it already is, or if it makes life harder for the organizers. That's it.

Edited 12/27/2019 22:52:41

+1 Beren

it doesn't hurt anyone or anything to let them in.

Look, I only complain because I think rules are rules and deadlines are deadlines. I personally could care less whether FUDEW plays, and I fully appreciate the work Cowboy is doing even though it probably doesn't seem like it.

The "it doesn't hurt anyone" argument flies in the face of setting rules in the first place. When AI got an extra sub/slot it was because "it didn't hurt anyone" and if FUDEW plays it's going to be because it "doesn't hurt anyone." And I appreciate the idea that people play this game for fun, but games have rules, and if we're going to have a league that has rules, we should follow them. I've been very consistent about this, I think, even though some interpret it as incessant complaining, because what happens when "it doesn't hurt anyone" becomes an advantage for someone?

I get your concerns Bonsai, but in the end it's better to let clans play, if they can.

While I would appreciate if clans follow the deadlines, but being accommodating is the best thing for the league overall. I do think rules need to be fairly clear and followed, but I also think going too hard with the letter of the law complicates things for everyone.

Also regarding the MH situation last CL, that was a mix-up on Farah's part, it was a literal lose lose situation as the tourneys had already made and would've backed stuff up for another week or 2.
I'm doing my best to prevent oversights like this. Particularly, I will be handling substitutions and slots myself (with the other CL Panel members)

Farah is lazy too and also didn't want to do more work. You guys have that in common.

Says the guy who did like 2 updates as CL scorekeeper in CL10 :P