@georg I carry the Israeli ID because I am a Jerusalemite, but I don't/can't have citizenship and even if I did I would still be Palestinian.
@Orannis the amount of misinformation in this is amazing. But I'll try to answer as much as possible. 1) I agree that the conflict isn't about the West Bank and Gaza alone. It is also about the 7 million refugees living in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other parts of the world. It is also about Jerusalem (East Jerusalem is West Bank by international law and by logic but Israel wants it, just like they want every inch of the occupied Golan Heights and the areas B and C of the West Bank, keeping Palestinians living in enclaves (Yes just like Bantustans in South Africa, you can check maps on the "real situation in Palestine map" On google to check that).
Okay, let's talk about the 1947 peace proposal.
The percentages are no where close to what you said they were.
the majority of the land (56%) would go to a Zionist state, when they at that stage legally owned only 6-7% of it and only constituted 33% of the population.There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45% of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. So you can see why no Palestinian would accept that proposal. Plus, Arab countries didn't attack Israel before they started plan Dalet which aimed to kill and expell as many Palestinians as possible and increase the lands they occupied. The plan was made by Zionists much before the Arab armies attacked.
Regarding 242 resolution, yes PLO rejected it for 20 years but we can see that even after accepting it and becoming serious about the peace plan and 2-state solutions, Israel is the one that isn't keeping their part of the 1993 peace deal or the 242 proposal.
The 2000 peace deal failed because Israel refused the 1967 borders even though that deal gives them 78% of the lands of Palestine. They refused the right of return of refugees, so someone actually born here can't come back to his country while a Jew that has never been to this land and his ancestors from 2000 years ago left the lands has the right to return here for free (and they get monthly salaries for doing that). complete hypocrisy.
2008? Can't find those peace talks
Again 2013/2014 peace talks failed because of Israel, and USA (their biggest ally and supporter) said that.
Trump's plan is bullshit and the whole world knows that and agreed that it is bullshit. They weren't even peace deals because Palestinians weren't there. It was a drawing of Netanyahu's and Trump's wet dreams.
You should educate yourself a bit more regarding the apartheid here. In the West Bank, there are segregated neighborhoods (the enclaves) ,schools, busses, access to water, rights, courts. For example if an Israeli and a Palestinian in the West Bank needed to go to a court. The Israeli would be seen in a different court that the Palestinian. The Israeli would be facing a normal civil court while the Palestinian would be facing a military court. Human rights organizations including Israeli ones consider Israel to be an apartheid state. And I am not talking about the Palestinians with Israeli passports, I am talking about the 5 million Palestinians inside Palestine suffering from the apartheid.
Yea, it is sad that Jews had to leave their houses in Arab countries. But Palestinians aren't the ones who kicked them out and they shouldn't pay the price, just like how we didn't do the Holocaust and shouldn't be paying the price. At least Jews who left Arab countries have full rights and their own country now, unlike Palestinians who are living stateless in refugee camps or living under apartheid. Still most Jews who left the Arab and Muslim countries to Israel did that because of the great offerings that Israel gave Jews to move there, but that's irrelevant anyway. You can't deny the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by saying the Jews were "Ethnically cleansed" From Arab countries.
Regarding "Jews bought the lands" No they didn't. 1)in 1946 Jews only owned 6-7% of Palestine, now they control more than 90% of it, and guess how that happened? By occupation not buying. They controlled 78% just after the 1948 war and they controlled the rest in expansions and confiscating lands. Plus, if you are talking particularly about the Sheikh Jarrah, the Palestinians on those lands own the lands and the houses. The ownership documents are with the Palestinian Authority for some reason though, so I guess they will be hidden because their masters told them to do so. In addition, according to international law, Israel is occupying the lands of Sheikh Jarrah and doesn't have the right to move settlers into there. Again, you can go read about ethnic cleansing in Palestine, it has been going on since ever and there are books and articles about it so I won't be writing a lot about it.
Regarding Hamas (and for the record I don't like Hamas tbh and most people that I talked to about the issue know that) BUT, Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, it is a liberation movement. Hamas only responded to Israel after Israel caused 600 injuries against peaceful people praying in Al Aqsa mosque INCLUDING CHILDREN AND 4 PEOPLE PERMANENTLY LOSING THEIR EYESIGHT. Jerusalemites went on social media and in every possible way asking the international community to stop the attacking on them. To stop the forceful evictions of the 500 Palestinians who will become homeless. To let the thousands of army members getting ready to do a massacre in AlAqsa stop. But no one moved a limb. Hamas gave an ultimatum to Israel that they should stop that. Israel didn't stop. Hamas said they will fire rockets at 6PM if Israel doesn't stop attacking unarmed Palestinians. Israel didn't stop. Hamas fired the rockets injuring only one person, only one person was injured and it was a response for 600 injuries and 500 illegal forced explosions so now comes the disproportionate Israeli response, more than 20 deaths in Gaza over one night. Egypt told both sides to have a ceasefire, Hamas accepted but Israel for sure refuses cause killing only 20 people makes them too peaceful. All of that continued until Israel killed more than 250 Palestinians including 70 children.
So we can see who started this wave and who caused more damage.
Israel doesn't treat injured Palestinians in their hospitals, this is just wrong. What is right though is that Israel purposefully delays and blocks ambulances from reaching the injured people. In Gaza they do that by bombing the roads leading to where they will bomb and in the West Bank they do it by the military blocking the roads (I can attach videos if you are interested ). Israeli soldiers even attack injured Palestinians INSIDE THE AMBULANCES.
Israel is definitely advanced but it isn't at all democratic. An apartheid can't be democratic, a state that prevents 7 million people from returning to their homes and also prevents 7 millions in its lands from gaining citizenship or rights isn't democratic.
Regarding what Palestinians did in the past 2000 years. 1)They weren't independent during those years, they were always under some sort of occupation. You can check Arab and Muslim inventions that you wouldn't be living the same life if they didn't invent though, as they were one unit with Palestine throughout that history
2)Why go back a lot in history? I can give you inventions of Palestinians living nowadays. Like the first electric cars company in the whole middle east, built in Lebanon by Palestinian refugees. It is called EVelectra and its products will be commercially available this year or the next one if I remember correctly. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.carscoops.com/2021/04/the-electra-quds-rise-is-an-electric-sports-car-from-lebanon/amp/
Before Israel occupied this lands, it was one of the largest producers of agricultural products in the world (products like oranges and olives)
The most valuable employee in Microsoft for more than 4 consecutive years is a Palestinian
Regarding the Israeli stuff you mentioned :
Intel was founded by 2 Americans and a Bangladeshi.
WhatsApp was founded by an American and an Ukrainian
Voice mail was invented by a Danish
The first smartphone camera was Japanese, so most of your claims are wrong. And even if they were made by Israelis, that doesn't justify the killing and oppressing of Palestinians.
Hamas didn't violate the ceasefire, you can go check your info, they didn't. Israel is the one that delayed the ceasefire for days so they can cause more casualties and harm. Israelis and Palestinians should be working together against the apartheid regime and to give everyone their rights, then I can guarantee you that if Hamas doesn't disband itself by itself, everyone would be against them. As I said before they are a liberation movement, so if liberation is reached their existence wouldn't have happened. Plus, Israel was occupying and oppressing Palestinians for 40 years before Hamas came to existence, so I guess we can all see who is the problem here. I also think that a two state solution is impossible anyway and it won't please anyone.
Imo a one state solution with everyone having equal rights is the only solution that won't cause a lot of deaths.
That was long...

Ooof it really is long

Israel/Palestine is rightful Roman territory anyway

that's what she said

The Jews ruled Israel for more than a thousand years before the Romans came along..

Also my god you wrote a lot, I'll do my best to respond to it.

7 million refugees living in refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and other parts of the world. It is also about Jerusalem (East Jerusalem is West Bank by international law and by logic but Israel wants it, just like they want every inch of the occupied Golan Heights and the areas B and C of the West Bank, keeping Palestinians living in enclaves.

These refugees were created by Islamist dictatorships, which is exactly what Hamas wants to turn Israel into. Also, Israel wants the Golan Heights because it is a militarily strategic position. If Israel surrendered the Golan Heights, Jordan would have the high ground and the ability to attack from the north at any moment (which they did in the six day war). In this war, Israel also captured Gaza and the West Bank (land can be conquered in wars, you know) and held onto it with its military because it hoped to give it back to the Palestinians on terms that would allow for peace and a two state solution. In 2005 Israel gave back Gaza to the Palestinians, however Hamas took control (funded by rich Muslims from Qatar, and other oil-rich countries). These billionaires have been using Hamas as a way to attack Israel without directly getting involved, sort of like a proxy war. So Israel decided enough is enough, that the Palestinians clearly don't want peace, and has held these places under a blockade to limit Hamas's damage.

Okay, let's talk about the 1947 peace proposal.
The percentages are no where close to what you said they were.
the majority of the land (56%) would go to a Zionist state, when they at that stage legally owned only 6-7% of it and only constituted 33% of the population.There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45% of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. So you can see why no Palestinian would accept that proposal. Plus, Arab countries didn't attack Israel before they started plan Dalet which aimed to kill and expell as many Palestinians as possible and increase the lands they occupied. The plan was made by Zionists much before the Arab armies attacked.

The land was divided based on demographics, and the proposed Arab state contained the majority of the fertile land in Israel. 60% of the proposed Jewish land was in the Negev desert. And further, 70% of the proposed Jewish land was not even owned by Arabs, so it's not like the Jews came in and kicked the Palestinians out. And no, the Arab countries attacked the day after Israel declared its independence, in an attempt to crush the country before it had time to set up a military. The Jews never had any plan to expel or kill Palestinians; most Palestinians fled on their own during the war which THEY started to expel and kill Jews! Do you see the irony of your claims here?

Regarding 242 resolution, yes PLO rejected it for 20 years but we can see that even after accepting it and becoming serious about the peace plan and 2-state solutions, Israel is the one that isn't keeping their part of the 1993 peace deal or the 242 proposal.
The 2000 peace deal failed because Israel refused the 1967 borders even though that deal gives them 78% of the lands of Palestine. They refused the right of return of refugees, so someone actually born here can't come back to his country while a Jew that has never been to this land and his ancestors from 2000 years ago left the lands has the right to return here for free (and they get monthly salaries for doing that). complete hypocrisy.
2008? Can't find those peace talks
Again 2013/2014 peace talks failed because of Israel, and USA (their biggest ally and supporter) said that.
Trump's plan is bullshit and the whole world knows that and agreed that it is bullshit. They weren't even peace deals because Palestinians weren't there. It was a drawing of Netanyahu's and Trump's wet dreams.
You should educate yourself a bit more regarding the apartheid here. In the West Bank, there are segregated neighborhoods (the enclaves) ,schools, busses, access to water, rights, courts. For example if an Israeli and a Palestinian in the West Bank needed to go to a court. The Israeli would be seen in a different court that the Palestinian. The Israeli would be facing a normal civil court while the Palestinian would be facing a military court. Human rights organizations including Israeli ones consider Israel to be an apartheid state. And I am not talking about the Palestinians with Israeli passports, I am talking about the 5 million Palestinians inside Palestine suffering from the apartheid.

It sounds to me like you expect Israel to give up the majority of its land in order for the deal to be fair. Jews were willing to take a small portion of the land in 1947, but since then have transformed Israel into the only DEMOCRACY in the middle east and the only homeland for Jews in the world. The Palestinians had their chance to get an overhwhemingly good bargain but they screwed themselves out of greed. Now they come back asking for most of the land, of course their side of the deal is going to be worse. Yet the Jews offer up 78% of their land for peace and the Palestinians don't want it. First off, every country has the right to refuse refugees, and second of all Palestinians refugees would be legally allowed to immigrate to either Israel or Palestine. I don't know where you got that bullshit from.

I can't respond to everything you've said, but I'll try to touch on the key points.

a) Despite your claims, Israel is a democracy and one of the most free countries in the world. Israelis and Palestinians have equal voting rights, and voting for your leaders is the definition of a democracy. Israel is not an apartheid, Israel lets Palestinians govern their own areas and run their own courts, schools and government systems. But if a Palestinian wants to live in an Israeli neighbourhood, go to an Israeli court or an Israeli school, they have the full right to do so. Most Palestinians choose not to because they hate Jews. And you are not living in a Palestinian enclave, because as of now there is no Palestine. You are living in a Palestinian governed area within Israel, and can come and go whenever you choose to. Please stopped with these lies that Palestinians in Israel are oppressed, you are treated the same by law as any Jewish or Christian Israeli citizen.

b) The Al-Asqa mosque attack was instigated by rioting Palestinians, who were throwing stones and shouting anti-semitic slurs at Jews and Israeli police. There are actually videos of the Palestinians instigating on camera. And anyway, I don't see why you see this as an excuse for Hamas to launch thousands of rockets at Israeli cities. Wanna know some breaches of international law by Palestinians?

1. Indiscriminately targeting civilians in Israel.
2. Using civilians in Gaza as human shields.
3. Using residential areas and civilian structures to hide weapons.
4. Disguising combatants as civilians.
5. Using tunnels to commit terror attacks.
6. Inciting a genocide of Jews, calling for a "second Holocaust" and for the destruction of Israel.

Edited 5/24/2021 16:49:40

I'm going to stop arguing with you now because tbh it's a waste of both of our time. Just know that no matter what you or I say or do, Israel will continue to thrive :)

Edited 5/24/2021 16:50:21

Five years ago, I drank matcha for the first time
It tasted very different than anything I've tried
It was green powder in milk, and I love milk
I was sitting in the library doing my homework
Taking small sips, savoring this unique drink


And this is when I realized Palestinians and Israelis are the same thing

Edited 5/24/2021 17:00:54

The irony is that the Israelis are for the most part more than willing to engage in a two state solution if it means peace, and it is the Palestinians that don't want the two state solution.

For what it's worth, it's important to note that the current two-state solution on offer for the PLO (from Gantz and Lapid, the two next likely PMs after Netanyahu) would preserve Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Israeli control over East Jerusalem. Gantz even pledges to strengthen the settlements.

It's entirely unsurprising that the PLO would reject this for the time being, gambling that it'll have a stronger hand in the future.

As far as the thousand years or the historic crimes of whoever's ancestors, that's not every different from saying black people in America deserve to get shot more by cops because black Americans commit more crime. You lump the innocent in with the guilty and create a group identity, pushing for guilt by association and rather transparently peddling revanchism. The world isn't made up of groups; it's made up of individual people who deserve opportunity and a path to a fulfilling life.

I don't even see why we need to be adversarial here. Regardless of who wins- Israel or Palestine- some people suffer, lose opportunity, lose lives, and lose their futures. Maybe instead of backing a horse, we should be thinking of how we can achieve a peaceful, cooperative settlement in the region that creates hope for everyone. This is when it stops being a bickering match between two sides and becomes a difficult geopolitical challenge: Israel's borders under the 1947 UN plan are simply non-viable. A single surprise offensive could cut Israel in two and destabilize the country's economic heartland. Unless Israel is able to trust Palestine the way the United States trusts Canada, the peace process in the region is drastically limited by a security dilemma. Beyond this, there are the issues of domestic politics, long-standing disputes, religious claims, and the like. But it's worth actually solving this- not just picking a side, instead finding a way to arrive at a better world- because that's the path to minimizing human suffering. Unfortunately, the only available global power at the moment benefits far, far more from siding with Israel than it would from brokering a lasting peace in the region.

Edited 5/24/2021 17:19:27

Dude, you are saying complete baseless stuff.
The refugees were created by Israeli gangs in 1947 and 1948 who did massacres killing thousands of Palestinians and causing Half of the Palestinian population out of Palestine.
Please read more about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
Here is a paragraph from the article so you can have a better idea.
The 1948 Palestinian exodus occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war.[1] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[2][3] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed and Palestinian history erased,[4] and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.[5]
So I really don't know where you came with the bullshit that Islamists did this, Israel did.

Again you are proofing that you know nothing about the conflict. The Golan heights are Syrian not Jordanian and Jordan has nothing to do with it, Israel occupied it from Syria. You can't justify occupying lands because it is strategically important, if China uses the same logic and occupies Nepal or Mongolia you won't be so happy about it right?
Israel never wanted to give back the West Bank to Palestinians, and they are still refusing it till now. They are only agreeing on giving the Palestinians administrative control over enclaves making 18% of the West Bank. Again that is like Bantustans in South African.
Again, Idk if you are blind or that you are deliberately ignoring the numbers. The 1947 partition plan gave Jews (who owned 6% of the land and made 33% of the population) 57% of the land. And give Palestinians (who make 67% of the population) 40% of the lands. How is that based on demographics? And again as I said before, the plan made 45% of the Palestinian population under the Jewish State control, again how is that fair or proportional to the demographics?
"it's not like the Jews came in and kicked the Palestinians out" They did exactly that, and if you read the link I gave above you will see that they did it. Dude stop making baseless claims
Israelis themselves didn't have the courtesy to deny the plan Dalet, they literally planned on doing it. Sources: https://www.google.com/amp/s/jewishvoiceforpeace.org/plan-daleth-plan-d-2/amp/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
Again Palestinians didn't leave their lands and kick Jews from their lands. And I would like to see your source of that accusation cause it is completely wrong. You can go read about why Jews left Arab countries, Palestinians had nothing to do with it.
Jews were willing to take most of the lands of a country that isn't theirs, they will definitely want to do that. They owned 6% of the lands and the deal would give them 57% of the lands, that's the best bargain anyone would get.
Israel isn't a democracy, Israel is an apartheid, sources: Israeli human rights group btselem https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid
Human rights Watch https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
The Jews are only offering us (the indigenous people of the lands) administrative control over 7% of the lands, idk where you came up with the 78% figure but your sources look interesting tbh

"every country has the right to refuse refugees"
True, but you don't understand. Palestinians don't want to come as refugees. They want to get back their houses and properties in their countries. It is called the right of return, they aren't asking to be refugees. https://www.unrwa.org/content/resolution-194#:~:text=The%20United%20Nations%20General%20Assembly,not%20to%20return%20and%20for
In the end of this I want you to really look into the sources and fix your misinformation about the topic. Being wrong and fixing your perception is much better than standing with the oppressor against the oppressed. In the end we all are humans and all we want is everyone to have their rights and equality

Edited 5/24/2021 17:51:57

The last message I sent is a response for orannis

Yeah a couple more links for Orannis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#From_Arab_countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Plan

Interesting, thanks for the read Knyte

To balance that out, it's also worth looking into the Second Intifada (which happened after Oslo). Neither side is unambiguously good in this conflict, but either way ordinary people get caught in the crossfire.

The Jews that ruled Israel and Judah are gone now Orannis. The Romans are still around so there doesn't even need to be a fight. Also imagine thinking being somewhere first means it belongs to you mfw

Isn't that exactly noob's point? That the Jews should not have Israel because Palestinians lived there first? Or am I missing something?

Someone claimed Israel is a "religious dictatorship" this is completely incorrect, Israel is a secular state. I would argue that the religious conflict is entirely secondary to the ethnic/cultural conflict between the Jews and the Palestinians.

Islamic terror has always been supported by Israel and Western intel. Before the creation of Israel, Palestine was a diverse country with little ethnic and religious conflict; Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived together in peace. There was no Hamas or anything like that. Both Zionism and Islamic terrorism are creations of greater geopolitical forces, neither are organic in the region.

Israel is a secular state

Israel is definitely not a secular state. It is a Jewish and a democratic state and the recent addition to Basic Law only leans into its religious preferences more. Israel accommodates religious pluralism but it also recognizes itself as the state for the Jewish people and protects/cultivates Judaism through its law. It's also definitely not a religious dictatorship, more of a convoluted democratic society that, primarily for historic and security reasons, rules over some people who have no say in its government.

That the Jews should not have Israel because Palestinians lived there first? Or am I missing something?

I'm going to throw another wrench in this discussion.




If you have any non-sub-Saharan ancestry, you likely have at least one prehistoric ancestor who lived in Israel for some time. It's around where the initial coupling of Neanderthals with modern humans began; you have 1-3% Neanderthal DNA. We all have an ancestral claim to that land.

Of course, our ancestors themselves stole it from the Neanderthals and the other hominins during the course of our great global genocide.

Edited 5/24/2021 21:29:13

Israel is a great state. Hamas, I'm assuming, are the ones in Syria. They are not great. Palestine and Israel both want the area completely. They need to just settle. It's not difficult. (As a side not, who the hell thought Homo Erectus was a good name for a species??)

Hamas are the ones running Gaza. Since 2006, they've been closely affiliated with Iran. In 2006, Hamas won the election in Palestine and formed a brief government (I think it only lasted a few months, if even that), but they were unable to secure international support and recognition because they would not disavow violence and terrorism or agree to uphold prior treaties between Israel and Palestine (made by Fatah, the other political faction in Palestine). Consequently, with American backing, Fatah turned on Hamas, losing the war in Gaza but gaining control of the West Bank. Hamas is designated by the US has a foreign terrorist organization (FTO), making it virtually impossible for the US to really work with them (for context, the Taliban are not a FTO and the US has made deals with them). So since 2006 they've become even more firmly violent and been in the pocket of Iran, whom they depend on for support. Due in large part to this fiasco, 2006 is the last time that Palestine held an election. Fatah has gone on to run the PLO and operate as the State of Palestine.

Gaza, run by Hamas and under indirect Israeli occupation (Israel controls the flow of goods in and out of Gaza, their airspace, etc.), is one of the most dystopian places to live in on earth. 3 million people trapped in a hellhole with 82% unemployment and little to no prospects. It's quite tragic.

Palestine and Israel both want the area completely.

This is not true. The two-state solution is still popular in Israel, with both of Netanyahu's major rivals (Lapid and Gantz) pushing for a two-state solution. Palestine also supports the two-state solution, although the sincerity of their support is debatable.

I am really happy I researched Palestine and Israel for my Israel vs Palestine game