10 minutes, actually, is the average police response time. A lot of people die while the police are on their way. On the other hand, simply having a firearm visible will instantly stop almost any burgler/mugger/assault attempt.

Kleck and Gertz is one of the most thorough studies done on the subject, their estimates ranged from (IIRC) 800,000 to 2.5 million per year.

DoJ paper: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
Kleck & Gertz: http://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Armed-Resistance-to-Crime.pdf

There are a lot of comparisons between different countries, but the correlation between gun ownership/homicide rates is negligible, and causation impossible to prove. Different countries are different countries.

Homogeneous cultures tend to have much lower crime rates, and most of the US rides right about the median level for crime levels among developed nations. Most of the crime in the US comes from a very small percentage of the population, and is heavily centered in poor, urban areas.

I used to be for gun control, until I actually studied the subject. What works in one country won't necessarily work in another, and gun control attempts in the US ignore the underlying problem and only serve to make it worse.

Ranek im pretty sure people can break your door down.

=D thats true. everything is possible. Even that Oscar Pistorius accidently shot his girlfriend. or america intervenes in the middle east for the sake of spreading democracy. Maybe a killer commando prepares itself, right in this moment to ambush my home and steal my worthless crap, shooting my door into pieces, rapes and kills me afterwards. It is possible, but I doubt it will probably happen.
There is one different between us. You live in fear, I dont! Maybe that depends on the strict laws about guns at my place. =)

Pulsey, you can't compare a childhood argument on the playground to the reality of having to defend yourself against a gang member or meth-head in the middle of the night.

Are you aware of the facts regarding violent crime in the US? Do you know the demographics of the victims and criminals? Do you know where these crimes happen most? Do you know why they happen? Yeah, it would be great to just solve our problems peacefully, if only wishes came true.

If you think you have the solution, I'm all ears.

Larger police forces only help to a degree, and are very expensive. Somebody has to pay for all that. Promotion of racial equality would be great, but the people complaining about racial inequality aren't interested in racial equality, for the most part. They are interested in using the race card to further their political and personal goals. You can't even have a discussion on the subject with more than a few people without the race card being pulled.

Look at the recent protests in the US. A black teen gets shot after committing a crime, and we don't know exactly what happened between him and the officer, and riots/looting/burning happen. Thousands of elderly whites are brutally beaten and murdered by black teens, and it gets written off as a difference in culture. There can be no honest discussion about racial equality in the current political climate.

There are a ton of statistics, too many for me to go over, and I don't really put in the effort anymore. Of all the people I've had this discussion with online, only a few have ever shown sincere interest, and if you have sincere interest, you'll do the research yourself.

For me, it boils down to this. If someone breaks into my home or attacks my family in the driveway at night, I reserve the right to defend my family in any way I see fit. As far as I'm concerned, that person gave up all rights to being treated with kid gloves or given the benefit of the doubt that they'll just take my TV and leave without hurting anyone.

It pains me to read a story in the UK or elsewhere where someone is prosecuted for defending themselves from an attacker. Makes no sense to me why a criminal has more right to his life than the person he's attacking.

Ranek, gun laws don't define culture. I don't live in fear, but I do believe in being prepared.

I have fire extinguishers placed throughout the house. I don't live in fear of a fire, but if one happens, I want to be able to deal with it. Same thing with a burglar in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, in the US, it's not a rare occurrence, even in quieter neighborhoods.

There's not always rhyme or reason as to why one house is targeted over another. The question is, what would the statistics have to be for you to decide you want to be prepared?

If there were a 1 in a million chance that someone attacks you at night, does that concern you? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100? (Almost)Everybody draws the line somewhere.

Black youths killed elderly white?

@Beren

That is a good point, and a very difficult subject. We need less stigma attached to mental health issues, better care especially for youth... however I don't think the solution is to try and ban guns. Even if you could get rid of guns(you can't), what would the negatives be? Who would benefit from the black market created? What crime would be associated with that new black market activity?

10 minutes, actually, is the average police response time.

average .... the lake was 20cm deep in average, but the cow drowned nonetheless. In those cases the police appears within five min, at my place. I have experienced that.

My biggest concern about the guns is the accompanied responsebility you give to the people. armed people find theirselfes in the situation to judge about life and death. I have to admit, that this is a terrifying image.

I really think a demonstration of the murder of the black boy silly, he was a robber what his family says he "was a good boy," I'm the only one who thinks this is idiotic? They were looking for a reason to demonstrate.

Average, because some places are closer to the police, some are further away. Sometimes the police are busy, sometimes they aren't.

In rural areas, the average time for an emergency call can be 30 minutes or longer. There's some truth to the statement 'When seconds count, the police are just minutes away'.

Also, that's assuming best case scenario. If someone tries to mug you on the street, are they just going to stand there while you call 911, and then wait around for 5-10 minutes for the cops to show up?

It's an ugly world at times, and generally only the people who have lived in the nicer parts of it have that vision that the cops are going to always be there. I was assaulted by a group of teens along with my wife and baby one night in Houston. It was in a parking lot as we were coming home from shopping. I had the trunk open and a bag of golf clubs in there, and luckily had time to pull out my putter. To be honest, I'm lucky to be alive. One of them had a knife pulled, but didn't look interested in dealing with my reach advantage at that point.

If I had stopped to call 911, we might not be having this discussion.

Little Blue, are you implying that the best way for people to feel safe and protect themselves is to carry a gun? That is absurd.

I certainly don't want to live in a society where I have to carry a gun to feel safe. I want to feel safe because I know the Police is out there doing their job they are paid to do, because everything that needs to be done to keep the area crime free is being done. The burglar too, should also make the decision not to burgle because its wrong to steal, not because he's scared that the guy he robs will carry a gun.

I want to walk out in the streets feeling as secure as I would even without a gun. The gun, really, is a last, last resort, and one I consider unnecessary anyway.

There are many countries and cities with people of all backgrounds, gun control and very good crime rates, like my home city, Hong Kong. Why should the US be any different? Does the color of their skin, or their genetics make them more violent or criminal at birth? No! It all goes down to how the environment in which they are brought up in that will define their behaviour and morals.

Edited 1/12/2015 20:32:16

You have to understand that he needs to deter, do you think the police will be time to get Sshmayemim the people? What would stop them put a knife in the stomach and escape? Even if you want to change the morality it will not matter if you take people's guns, it's a great country that an investor who can not, there are people born without an education in the street, and you can change it easily.
And Dana for as little as Hong Kong is much easier to enforce, it is only 7 million on a land area, the police takes maybe two hours to cross the city, you compare?
And if no guns is what will stop them rob with a butcher knife.
You can not change these things easily, and such a large country with a very large debt

You can not change these things easily, and such a large country with a very large debt

Perhaps is they stopped spending trillions on making enemies across the globe they could improve the security of their nation...

I find it sad that people in a country have so little trust in the Police and faith in the security of their neighbourhood that they find it a need to resort to arming themselves and potentially killing someone just to be able to protect their homes and families.

The rest of your comment (first part) I didn't quite understand.

Edited 1/12/2015 20:47:22

Little Blue, there are many options to prevent an assault. You did it with your putter? Very well done. I admire your courage. I dont want to convince you. And you or someone else wont convince me either. At the beginning, this was about foreigners views of america. In fact that most of the fact could be used for both sides within this discussion, I will simply decide for myself to avoid guns in general. In my opinion they are made to take lifes not to protect them. stating the opposite is like stating: We achieve peace with war.

Read my poem

Edited 1/12/2015 20:56:47

Pulsey, I'm not saying anything about feelings. Feelings have no bearing on reality. I will say that having a gun is the best way to protect yourself against an attacker. Do you disagree with that? If so, what are the best ways to protect yourself in your opinion?

I agree, I want to live somewhere where I'm safe. But what you want doesn't change reality. The question is, how likely are you to be attacked, and how do you want to prepare for it?

The burglar too, should also make the decision not to burgle because its wrong to steal, not because he's scared that the guy he robs will carry a gun.

You don't have a strong foundation in reality. That is one of the most absurd things I've heard in a while. Murderers should just stop killing cause it's wrong, right? That would solve all our problems, but nobody could actually think it's a solution.

There are many countries and cities with people of all backgrounds, gun control and very good crime rates, like my home city, Hong Kong. Why should the US be any different? Does the color of their skin, or their genetics make them more violent or criminal at birth? No! It all goes down to how the environment in which they are brought up in that will define their behaviour and morals.

There you go! That's exactly it. There is a very large problem with culture in the US, especially in poor, urban areas. Gun control won't fix that problem at all.

thats why the poor should be exacuted hahahahha jk jk jk

Ranek, yes I was able to protect myself without a gun. I was also very lucky. If they had come 10 seconds earlier or 10 seconds later, I wouldn't have access to anything except my own hands.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of what they should do or like, I'm just stating my opinions, based on facts and research. The facts matter, but most people form their opinions on their feelings, like Pulsey. He wants to feel safe, but criminals don't care about that. He thinks it shows a lack of faith in the police and the community to own guns for defense, but what about the people who had faith in the police and the community, but were brutally murdered with no means to defend themselves?

This is on-topic, because foreigners try to view the gun-control issue without understanding it. You can't understand the impacts and ramifications of gun-control in the US without understanding the underlying situation, crime rates, causes, demographics, etc etc etc.

If I could change the US to where people didn't get murdered, I would. Since I can't, I prepare. I have insurance in case of a flood or fire. I have fire extinguishers in case of fire. I have food storage in case of food shortage or a loss of income. Emotion should have no place in these discussions, but emotion drives most human reasoning. Especially in politics.

Edit: Almost forgot. The great thing about self defense with a gun, is how rarely a person has to kill someone to defend themselves with it. Only a couple hundred cases a year of a citizen actually killing a criminal. Almost every time, simply brandishing the firearm stops the crime. Again, statistics and facts, not emotions.

On the other hand, when people try to defend themselves with a knife, bat, or even golf club, it usually doesn't de-escalate the situation, and then real violence has to happen.

Edited 1/12/2015 21:29:53

Ok, enough of this topic. how bout we go to civil troubles and revolutions and things of the like that involve the people and weapons.

There you go! That's exactly it. There is a very large problem with culture in the US, especially in poor, urban areas. Gun control won't fix that problem at all.

Of course gun control won't fix that problem. And that was my earlier point. Money and time should be spent on solutions to solve the root of the problem by improving the cultural environment, rather than relying on using the threat of violence (guns).

And you misunderstood my earlier burglary point. The person robbing the house is making a conscious decision to do so. Would you rob someone's house if you needed money? I'm guessing / hoping not. And the same goes to people all over the world. Why should the burglar be any different?

My point : You should feel safe because it is your right to do so, not because you carry a gun. Many countries get along fine with gun control, including ones with a mix of races. I don't see why a gunless America should be any different.

Lucid, let them talk.