In a serious season, strat clans will never risk playing on templates that have a strong luck component. Weaker players will always get stomped on serious strat templates.

That said I lowkey thing 3v3 AutoRoR would be fire in unserious seasons. Or a similar 2v2 auto distribution if we think getting 3 man teams is too unlikely. I once played an entire SEAD season when OP was taking things casually and it was a blast.

“Its just too difficult a template” one of the most beta things I’ve ever read on this forum. Although I agree, that adding something with auto starts like ror could be an actually great idea.

It is an odd complaint that better players tend to win, but raising the problem of free wins on 2v2 for example is reasonable,

Edited 12/27/2024 11:10:28

@Texx - Sadly, I think it is what Fizzer intended. He said something of the nature of "if you want to compete for the top spot in CW, your whole clan should be actively working towards that goal; if your whole clan isn't on board with it, you shouldn't be able to be competitive in CW". I think he's totally fine with "competitive CW" being an exercise in micromanagement, coordinated effort & kicking players that don't align with the goal of winning CW whether it be WR or inactivity. He feels adamant enough about CW/clan caps/etc that his answer to "clans should be about communities, capped clans lack community" was increasing cap to 50 & creating Groups. His solution was an (insufficient) increase & a solution entirely outside of clans themselves.

@Leon - Whoever says that MB hates competition is either crazy, lying or just misunderstands. No one spends that much effort putting a system to success together without wanting to exercise it. Winning w/o competition is boring. Tight competition and still winning is the ultimate.

Also agree that some templates just take too long - or have the risk of potentially taking too long. I'm not open to throwing the dice and hoping that (A) it's isn't going to be a close game that takes many turns, and (B) an opponent isn't going to play to elimination and ride the clock, poking for a boot win b/c the opponent doesn't have 120 mins to kill. Even some Bomber games go for 60 mins. Nevermind the non-SE templates.

@Tacky - I don't think the templates need to be fixed in slots, but rather just ensure that each template shows up in a fixed frequency, and publish the slots for the coming week ahead of time. Get rid of the "previous day's activity in a given slot dictates that slot's template count the following day" junk. If there must be some correlation, make it a week-to-week thing, not a daily thing. Making time to play a game at a specific time and not getting a preferable template is garbage. Publish the templates ahead of time. Let people/clans plan their games.

@Bodski - lmao, yes it is an odd complaint that strong players win. We would never hear this same argument in chess or other similar games. But yet we have some players that define a "fair game" as one where each player has a 50/50 chance of winning inclusive of the difference in skill. Like there should be a handicap of some type in play to even out the skill gap. Like having stronger players start with a rook and 2 pawns missing. Which is why there are some who actually seriously want Duel Lotto in CW.

As for FWs, seems like we have a FW problem when some part of your CW strategy needs to be dedicated to FW farming. Not b/c you don't want to play CW but b/c if you don't farm FWs, you will fall behind in the count.

Tbh I don't think there should be any "protected" CW templates. Let the people vote. If they vote SEAD out and Biomes in, so be it. If you really want SEAD in, vote it back in.

A weird aspect of "trying to beat the elites" is to avoid "elite templates", and sometimes people start talking about eliminating elite templates from CW rotation, which is actually the worst thing you can do if you're trying to beat the elites. You remove elite templates, they'll play on the non-elite templates and just beat you there. Unless it actually comes down to Duel Lotto, in the end they're going to beat you >50%. If anyone doubts this, post your results vs MB on whatever non-elite template you like. I bet it's <50% WR. Whatever template you add into the rotation will eventually be taken over by elites if the template stays in rotation long enough. The idea that you can somehow change the game so that the strongest players don't win as much is flawed. Now extend that to clans, you can't change the game so that the clans with the highest count of active strong players don't win CW. Nor should you be able to.

i think everyone needs to take a step back and remember something very important, it’s just a game. no player is monetizing it and the only thing on the line is bragging rights. i have played many games against top players because i enjoy the more difficult templates. i get excited facing mb or op knowing i have nothing to lose and challenging myself to see if i can win. in these circumstances it’s my opponent who has everything to lose, the shame of being beaten by me is real.
often the biggest consideration in my choice is time and device. ld on phone is intense.
i think the competition and efforts made are great and contribute to the community but this is nobody’s source of income except fizzer.

[cicero's opinion is irrelevant and cannot be shown cause he doesn't play real templates according to experts statement]

Edited 12/28/2024 15:24:47

10/10 bait. it wasn't just yesterday we had a day where our of the 6 slots:
5 mald
5 comld
1 sead
0 french brawl
don't fool yourself Cicero my post was never about your speciality but how unreasonable the template pool is

or maybe I'm just wrong and mald comld 5 times more popular than sead and 3 times more popular than s1v1 and we should have them 4-6 times per day. and screw some templates have them once per 2-3 days. what do I know, I don't have the 1000 consecutive clan wars games of experience that you have great Cicero. ignore my comment I'm obviously clueless

Clan Wars will continue to be unserious, as long as it continues to have horrible variety in timeslots, is activity based over being skill based, and treats all templates as equals.

It's a casual gamemode for casual players that occasionally gets shaken up by someone being bored.

It's a casual gamemode for casual players that occasionally gets shaken up by someone being bored.

Jealousy!

You better add the Bomb to CL.

"Whoever does not go with the times has to go with time" - Norman

"Its just too difficult a template” one of the most beta things"

Some people play clam wars for the games, and some of those want challenging maps and that is fine.
Some of us have 0 fornication to give for PvP and are ONLY in this for the idle boosts and without those wouldn't bother.
And as long as the rewards are idle based, that's OK.

Considering how popular SEAD and to a lessor extent the other SE maps are, I'd hazard a guess that more than 50% of clam warriors would probably not bother if you took away the rewards, at least in the bigger clams. Granted I have no way to actually prove this.

I also hazard a guess that if Duel Lotto was offered in every slot, some people would be very disappointed in it's popularity.

I am not saying lotto in Clam Wars should be a thing. Nor am I saying Clam Wars shouldn't be centered around a competitive ethos, but much like arena matches, as long as you give you idle rewards, you are going to attract players who want to get them in the easiest way possible, that isn't beta. Maybe these people off game hug other dudes aggressively in the octogen, or do power lifting, or are grinding their way to move from a career in accounting to lion taming via say banking or spend loads of time playing multi player paradox games, or WH 40K at their local gaming store. People have different preferences.

Well I don't think (only) issue of strat 2v2 is it favoring better players/elites, but also if you are in a clan that needs wins without ways of compensating it easier (i.e. low participation overall) you are risking 2 games of that day instead of one

Here is the things I think is true:

1. Doctor K's data is probably biased towards elites, since there are many instances which non elite players go strat 2v2 only for free win hunting rather than to play.
2. Still without biased data (which is impossible to obtain), it would be an elite template, since I expect the combined winrate of a duo against elites to be lower than their usual winrate against elites in a more normal template(e.g. strat 1v1)
3. Even though it is an elite template, main reason people avoids it *that much* (I want to put emphasis on there, since I agree with Morg that there is an important group of people that just click SE) isn't that, but also it being 2v2, which many people are less experienced and do not want to tie 2 games on it.
4. Maybe a hot take but if we had a 1v1 elite template (like Biomes) it would be still more popular than current strat 2v2.
5. I'd like to see a template like Kabix2v2, unfortunately it lost the vote. My hot take is it would be popular when SEAD is not on the slot.
6. I was planning to say some other stuff but forgot while typing, so... yes that's all for now.

Even the phrase “elite template” is disguising to me. There are normal interesting templates and there are boring templates with heavy luck or heavy luck rock-paper-scissors elements.

“Elite” players are more interested in playing normal interesting templates because there’s lot to learn and lots to improve on from game to game. Shitty players aren’t willing to put in the work to learn and improve so they get off from going 50/50 at rock-paper-scissors.

wohw there, don’t make sweeping inclusive statements about player motivation.

Edited 12/28/2024 21:26:37

"2. Still without biased data (which is impossible to obtain), it would be an elite template, since I expect the combined winrate of a duo against elites to be lower than their usual winrate against elites in a more normal template(e.g. strat 1v1)"

I disagree that Strategic 2v2 (aka Final Earth) is an elite template. It is the baseline 2v2 template in the game. It's wrong to call something elitist when it requires just the basics to know how to play it.

It's just that a large amount of the playerbase doesn't understand picking, move order, and simple gameplay mechanics.

I didn't really want to discuss what makes a template elite but basically my definition is if a template's structure makes it significantly easier for stronger player to break the balance in their favor, compared to usual then that makes a template elite.
For usual I compare with strat 1v1.
Arguably the team factor allows better players to win easier and more, compared to strat 1v1. At least that is my observation.

That could be argued for any 2v2 though. 2 good players will always have an advantage over 2 bad players. Hell the same works in 1v1. Taking that skill out reduces the validity of a competition though.

i have argued with texx for a long time that he should play more 2v2 to train others. if one of the players is good and communicates well it lessens the other’s skill deficiency.
i understand why he doesn’t but see a glaring hole in harmony cw for not getting good on it. bodski is great at team md (best mate ever) but can’t work his magic in rt.
all this makes 2v2 a very specialized template that requires a lot of games played to be good and is seen as “elite”. f\/|< i dislike that argument for or against templates. get gud and stop whining like a small female dog.

cw was intended as an inclusive clan competition. i know some only play it for idke rewards (they deservedly got kicked out of harmony) but at its core its about the classic game. if that too hard (sead is often available) then that’s on the player to improve. sure, you might peak at average but that reality.
don’t blame mb (flexus) for figuring out how to be great. don’t blame harmony and prime (previously) for playing so much. stop finding excuses and figure it out. that’s how the top clans got there.

life is not fair, my children learned that as soon as they could talk and understand.

PLACE YOUR BETS!

At the end of 14 days, there are exactly 180 territories claimed, out of 255. https://www.warzone.com/Map/24044-Vermont.

On what day will the battle end?

Winky Face has a 12 game lead... Will it hold?

Place your BETS~!!!!!

[Updated at 0004Z]

Edited 12/29/2024 00:04:37