http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

"Nationalism is inherently xenophobic. It's awful and should under no settings encouraged."
Wrong. There is nothing wrong with loving your country more than others. It encourages people to contribute more, and increases competition.

Also, to Teamguns: BLM is certainly authoritarian. I think they want hegemony, but that isn't the point. Look at this article: http://www.breitbart.com/education/2016/02/10/fake-blood-and-war-chants-milo-yiannopoulos-event-at-rutgers-disrupted-by-feminists-black-lives-matter-activists/
This is clearly an attempt to silence free speech. What more do you need to be authoritarian?

"Trump is for waging "total war" on Syria - killing the terrorists' friends and family. I mean, that's just f---ed up, I get that killing innocent civilians will happen anyway, but to make it official public government policy... "
What is wrong with this? It will save lives in the long run by ending the war quicker. At least they won't be beheaded by ISIS. Honestly, international law on war as caused more death than it prevents. I suggest reading the Verdict of Battle (Whitman) to understand how by trying to coddle civilians, we just drag out wars even longer, causing MORE deaths.

Also, about that 20 billion surplus thing: 1) 20 billion isn't that much tbh. Maybe in Britain. But not in the US. Anyway, it isn't worth it. Look at Rotherham. I would rather be 20 billion worse off than have shariah law in parts of Britain accepted as official. Maybe you wouldn't, but that is just me.

ISLAM IS CANCER FOR THE WEST! I have nothing against individual Muslims, but the teachings of Islam are so contrary to all Western ideals. Not all are terrorists, it is true, but many not only do nothing to stop them, but support terrorism.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/16/geller-do-muslims-around-the-world-really-hate-the-united-states-yes/
The "moderate" Muslims only want to impose their woman-oppressing ideology through mass immigration and 4 wives x 4 kids each, until they have enough people to simply vote in Shariah law (see: Dearbornistan, Michigan; Rotherham.)

Edited 3/7/2016 00:31:28

Wrong. There is nothing wrong with loving your country more than others. It encourages people to contribute more, and increases competition.

Oh, there's plenty wrong. You love your country more than others since it is greater than others, you think your folk are better than others (supremacism), that others are worse (racism). You become a slave to, if not your government, then your country, and will become genocidist bullet fodder. You say this is only extreme nationalism. Well, moderate nationalism has this xenophobia moderately, maybe not even violently, but certainly awfully supremacist. Nationalism and pride are plagues. They used to be needed for living on back when humans were equal to monkeys - obedience of their master and selflessness hive minding. But now, we are not apes. As Tolstoy said, "Patriotism is slavery.". Since you're going to pseudo-recommend me books, I recommend you read Lev Tolstoy's "Patriotism and Christianity", chiefly arguing that patriotism is an un-Chrisitian deal. Of course banned immediately in Russia.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Patriotism_and_Christianity

What is wrong with this? It will save lives in the long run by ending the war quicker. At least they won't be beheaded by ISIS. Honestly, international law on war as caused more death than it prevents. I suggest reading the Verdict of Battle (Whitman) to understand how by trying to coddle civilians, we just drag out wars even longer, causing MORE deaths.

What is wrong with this? Are you f-----ing asking that? You stupidhead pig who should die in a mudpool, are you f---ing asking that? Go to Hell, when Salafi resistance do the same thing to you, every American soldier, and American politician. Impale your dog, burn you in a cage, behead your mother. And then you come back, with half your face blown away from bombs, jaw blown off, and ask with what tongue and teeth you have left "What is wrong with this? The Syrians are just trying to end the war faster.".

Also, about that 20 billion surplus thing: 1) 20 billion isn't that much tbh. Maybe in Britain. But not in the US. Anyway, it isn't worth it. Look at Rotherham. I would rather be 20 billion worse off than have shariah law in parts of Britain accepted as official. Maybe you wouldn't, but that is just me.

ISLAM IS CANCER FOR THE WEST! I have nothing against individual Muslims, but the teachings of Islam are so contrary to all Western ideals. Not all are terrorists, it is true, but many not only do nothing to stop them, but support terrorism.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/16/geller-do-muslims-around-the-world-really-hate-the-united-states-yes/
The "moderate" Muslims only want to impose their woman-oppressing ideology through mass immigration and 4 wives x 4 kids each, until they have enough people to simply vote in Shariah law (see: Dearbornistan, Michigan; Rotherham.)

Maybe we should stop parading "West ideas as so great". I'm not a fan of all Islamic aspects, but maybe they'd be less faithful if they stopped getting bombed and funding to bomb each other every day. "Not all are terrorists?" How many terrorists have there been, out of about one and half million Muslim migrants, hmm? How many? And to phrase it as if the majority is terrorist, ugh, disgusting Islamphobic runt. You think European culture will actually somehow get overtaken by Islamic culture? Fat chance. If the EU accepted all the migrants, the Muslim population of the EU would grow from 4% to 5%. Oh wow, 1% holy cow, Muslims are oppressing us. You're worse than that Black Lives Matter thing that you hate, since you're the majority, and you're still whining about some mythic threat. Good god. You make me sick.

@GeneralPE

Also, about that 20 billion surplus thing: 1) 20 billion isn't that much tbh. Maybe in Britain. But not in the US. Anyway, it isn't worth it. Look at Rotherham. I would rather be 20 billion worse off than have shariah law in parts of Britain accepted as official. Maybe you wouldn't, but that is just me.

First you say immigration doesn't give anything to the country, now you say it doesn't give enough, what do you want me to say, you have a formed mind on the subject, it doesn't matter what I say or which facts I present, you'll still keep you shitty ideas on it.

And no, Islam isn't a cancer for the west. That's a stupid thing you've just said and really, I cannot see you anymore at nothing but as a right-wing radical. Have you read the Quran? Have you read the bible? the original one of course, not the one edited by the catholics for 2 thousand years in order to make it softer.

The Bible is far worse in matters of rights to women, defense of non-violence and against western values. As it appear to me your knowlage of religion is really wrong, let me enlighten you:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Matthew 10:34, 10:35 and 10:35

Signed Jesus Christ


Feels to me that christianism is really more authoritarian then BLM or Muslims for that matter.

Edited 3/7/2016 00:57:41

"What is wrong with this? Are you f-----ing asking that? You stupidhead pig who should die in a mudpool, are you f---ing asking that? Go to Hell, when Salafi resistance do the same thing to you, every American soldier, and American politician. Impale your dog, burn you in a cage, behead your mother. And then you come back, with half your face blown away from bombs, jaw blown off, and ask with what tongue and teeth you have left "What is wrong with this? The Syrians are just trying to end the war faster."."
So pretty much, you can't refute me with facts/logic, so just yell and scream evil? I'd rather take an American bomb than get burned alive by ISIS for being a Christian.

" If the EU accepted all the migrants, the Muslim population of the EU would grow from 4% to 5%. Oh wow, 1% holy cow, Muslims are oppressing us."
Except I'm pretty sure a) those numbers are wrong, and b) the active minority can overcome a silent majority. Just look at how much fuss LBGT people make, and they are only 4% of the population and far less bent on domination. Plus, your numbers don't take into effect incredibly high Muslims birthrates compared to European birthrates. Project the numbers over 2 generations, then talk to me.

"Feels to me that christianism is really more authoritarian then BLM or Muslims for that matter. "
Ok, is that why every majority Christian nation oppresses women, punishes people for burning the Bible, has honor killings, etc? Thought not

"The Bible is far worse in matters of rights to women, defense of non-violence and against western values. As it appear to me your knowlage of religion is really wrong, let me enlighten you:"
Never said anything about Christianity, but anyway: want to judge how people from a religion should act? Look at the founder. Jesus Christ, or Muhammed? Both are the ideals people of the two religions look up to. Muhammed was a violent raiding warlord who married a girl and killed hundreds of people in his lifetime of military conquest. Jesus healed people and let himself be killed rather than fight back and resist. Furthermore, people do not take every word in the Bible as it is. Finally, I am judging on the actions of the adherents. Tell me more about those thousands of Christian fundamentalist suicide bombers, and those people just cranking out babies so they can install Old Testament law. Oh, wait... So don't give me this "Bible is worse than Quran shit".

@Juq
Looking at your (rather shady) numbers, I calculate there will be 35 million Muslims in Europe. At .1% are terrorists, that is 35000 terrorists.

Edited 3/7/2016 01:12:37

What if I told you, the US created muslim extremism?

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Jesus' coming is a sign of revolutionary change. His teachings go against Judaism, the traditional norm.

Matthew 10:37-39

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


He that does not live as a Christian, a follower of Christ, should live, will not be deemed worthy of the Kingdom of God.

"What if I told you, the US created muslim extremism?"
What if I told you, Muhammed created Muslim extremism? O_o

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--RKYkJn7u--/17qwji27dn93ijpg.jpg

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/fa/fae348aeb186388be5f037cae345879101bd2c196181c3a05d0a90d0e439e90f.jpg
Sry, not a member :(

Edited 3/7/2016 01:24:06

How in the hell did this go from memes to a political debate?
Seriously, if you participated in it its partly your fault that the thread got derailed :p

What if I told you, the US created muslim extremism?

LOL. The Islamic Caliphates that conquered North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of the Indian Subcontinent and then exercised forced conversions and unending bloodshed on people of other faiths was around long before America bud. You remember the Jizya? How about the burning of Hindu temples? Hmm guess not, since hose were all pre-1776.

All the primary justifications of Jihadist groups rely on actual scriptural references from the Quran. Yes they are misinterpreting them and amplifying their message with references to the "evil imperialism" of the west, but the sheer fact that the Quran can allow extremists to twist its words to justify burning people in cages, slicing throats off, and engaging in sexual trafficking of underage girls is proof enough that the root of muslim extremism is located within and not external.

Don't defend Muslim Extremists by pointing the finger at Western Nations. You can choose a side. You're either with ISIS and the people killing Coptic Christians and Islamic Minorities, or you're against them and you support any and all attempts to utterly destroy them.

Edited 3/7/2016 01:41:10

When I think about US involvement in other countries I like to think about the Monroe Doctorine... That handy document that told other countries to stay out of the Americas.. It shows how hypocritical America is.. We tell them to stay out so we should stay out of their countries

Modern Muslim extremism in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria is partially caused by the US.

If the US wasn't so hypocritical do you think that there would be as much extremism? Sure, there would be some but would there be as much?

There would be just as much extremism, it just wouldn't be directed against the West as much. Islam is by nature combative and violent; the West didn't do that to it.

Yeah. It'd just be about something else.

So pretty much, you can't refute me with facts/logic, so just yell and scream evil? I'd rather take an American bomb than get burned alive by ISIS for being a Christian.

Ok, I accept that scum like you are.

Maybe the Islamic extremists need to listen to your valid points and kill innocent folk in America, to disable the warmongerers and threat nu. 1 to world peace, maybe bring some of that beheading, and burning to, as Americans say, "stateside". Do you really think it is ethic for you to be gruesomely killed just since you know someone who went to fight in the Middle East once? Tell me in the afterlife your answer.

Except I'm pretty sure a) those numbers are wrong, and b) the active minority can overcome a silent majority. Just look at how much fuss LBGT people make, and they are only 4% of the population and far less bent on domination. Plus, your numbers don't take into effect incredibly high Muslims birthrates compared to European birthrates. Project the numbers over 2 generations, then talk to me.

a) 13 million Muslims, according to Pew Research. 13/508 (508 being total EU population) = 0.0256. You're right, I was wrong - it's lower than what I had. And if the whole population of Iraq and Syria (way bigger than who actually will/who actually wants to come) come to the EU, it will be raised to 13%, or about as much as Bulgaria's Muslim population. So even in a worst-case scenario so bad that it's impossible, it still will be about as Islamic as Bulgaria. b) That's total BS. LGBT do not dominate. Minorities don't dominate, unless they are only a little lower than majority.

Ok, is that why every majority Christian nation oppresses women, punishes people for burning the Bible, has honor killings, etc? Thought not

The Lord's Resistance Army, otherwise known as "What Christians like to not hear of/not talk about." And you know what? You could hardly tell apart a Christian and Islamic country in the 1600s. Cut off that person's hand for crime, yes. Stone folk, great. Kill Jews, oh, Christians only there. Beat your woman, oh, Christians only there again. Allow no faith freedom, oh, Christians only there. It's only through lowering faith that Christianity became how it is today, and discarding orders from the Bible, like killing whoever works on a Sunday. But in the meantime, the Turkish and Iranian polities were ganged up on by Christian powers, and always weak, and folk turned to their faith through the dynastic wars and invading countries, stunting the "atheism" that grew in Europe. And it got better, but then the European settlers came. Turks managed to get off ok, and Iranians mediocre, but everyone else was put in a settlement, and encouraged to make their own countries and be nationalist (in which they did).

Never said anything about Christianity, but anyway: want to judge how people from a religion should act? Look at the founder. Jesus Christ, or Muhammed? Both are the ideals people of the two religions look up to. Muhammed was a violent raiding warlord who married a girl and killed hundreds of people in his lifetime of military conquest. Jesus healed people and let himself be killed rather than fight back and resist. Furthermore, people do not take every word in the Bible as it is. Finally, I am judging on the actions of the adherents. Tell me more about those thousands of Christian fundamentalist suicide bombers, and those people just cranking out babies so they can install Old Testament law. Oh, wait... So don't give me this "Bible is worse than Quran shit".

Christ is also very respected in Islam (a truth you Islamophobes will be shocked to hear). Muhammad is best respected for transcribing the Quran, he's not meant to be a model. The grounds that it's thought of as very uncouth to draw him is so that folk wouldn't worship him instead of God. And if Christians did as faithfully as the Muslims did, well, that would be a far worse hell (Hitchslap actually had a good, albeit tactless post about it).

Looking at your (rather shady) numbers, I calculate there will be 35 million Muslims in Europe. At .1% are terrorists, that is 35000 terrorists.

0.1% is a very high estimate, though. 0.005% is more likely (5 for every 100,000). Furthermore, why would terrorists bother with all that, when they can just drive to Turkey and shoot every Christian or Red Kurd they see? Drive to Lebanon and the Syrian beach, and do the same thing. For politic retaliation, they can just take some rocket launchers and shoot some Iranian border towns, and invade Arabia through the unguarded desert.

And even those who do come to far west Europe, there's far more problems with letting murderers in from mid west Europe than terrorism.

LOL. The Islamic Caliphates that conquered North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of the Indian Subcontinent and then exercised forced conversions and unending bloodshed on people of other faiths was around long before America bud. You remember the Jizya? How about the burning of Hindu temples? Hmm guess not, since hose were all pre-1776.

I don't know why you're laughing at such a thing. Anyhow, polity =/ folk, as you seem to have this idea stuck in your head (and, by extension, that you need to be at a war crime court since you failed to stop America from invading all the countries in your lifetime).

All the primary justifications of Jihadist groups rely on actual scriptural references from the Quran. Yes they are misinterpreting them and amplifying their message with references to the "evil imperialism" of the west, but the sheer fact that the Quran can allow extremists to twist its words to justify burning people in cages, slicing throats off, and engaging in sexual trafficking of underage girls is proof enough that the root of muslim extremism is located within and not external.

You can twist words from anything. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzYXurzNoE4

Don't defend Muslim Extremists by pointing the finger at Western Nations. You can choose a side. You're either with ISIS and the people killing Coptic Christians and Islamic Minorities, or you're against them and you support any and all attempts to utterly destroy them.

To eliminate Islamic extremism, you must eliminate American government and friends.

When I think about US involvement in other countries I like to think about the Monroe Doctorine... That handy document that told other countries to stay out of the Americas.. It shows how hypocritical America is.. We tell them to stay out so we should stay out of their countries

Yeah, and even America can not fully handle the Americas - Guyanne Française where rockets are launched from, and loads of little islands still owned by European powers.

I can assure you there would still be Muslim extremists in Pakistan sending foreign fighters into India to kill border patrol agents and civilians and Hindus and priests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akshardham_Temple_attack#Healing:_The_Aftermath_of_the_Attack

^This was in 2002.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks

^This was in 2008.

Yeah I remember...I was 10 years old and worried to death some crazy lunatic Islamic jihadists had killed my family while trying to convert the infidels of India.

Get over yourselves. Muslim extremism doesn't need the West or the USA to function. They always have a target. If not Christians then Jews. If not Jews than Hindus. If not Hindus than Buddhists.

by extension, that you need to be at a war crime court since you failed to stop America from invading all the countries in your lifetime

That's unequivocally false. Note that the Caliphate wasn't a political entity, but primarily a religious entity that existed in order to spread the faith of Islam to every corner of the globe. The mission of the US government in wars over the last several decades has not been to spread a religion. We can and should criticize the US for wars when they have no political or national security interest, however we can and should criticize people within Islam who spread the idea of the caliphate. In ancient Islamic times the polity was the people because they were united under a commonly shared value of: "we must spread Islam by force".

Edited 3/7/2016 02:04:53

"The Lord's Resistance Army"
New this would come up. A 500 man group, most of them impressed child soldiers, equate with Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Al Shabab, ISIS, etc.

" (508 being total EU population"
I was using Europe, not EU. Got me confused.

"Christ is also very respected in Islam (a truth you Islamophobes will be shocked to hear)."
I knew that. Stop making generalizations.

"You could hardly tell apart a Christian and Islamic country in the 1600s. Cut off that person's hand for crime, yes. Stone folk, great. Kill Jews, oh, Christians only there. Beat your woman, oh, Christians only there again. Allow no faith freedom, oh, Christians only there. "
Yes, we should judge Christians on shit that happened in the 17th century. At least you didn't use the Crusades.

"And even those who do come to far west Europe, there's far more problems with letting murderers in from mid west Europe than terrorism."
Is that why Mafia members bombed Paris?

Stop your sob tales. Islamic extremism is impossible to eliminate 100%, as it is to eliminate Christian, Hindu, Buddhist extremism fully, but 90% of it is made from American shrapnel.