i am the god of SE

if Ozijs wishes to dispute that he's welcome to challenge me

Multi-attack Split-Mode Commander Cards! is technically also a SE template. Challenge Efra in that.

Edited 9/29/2021 22:08:28

Wait til you hear about the 1 v 1 Ladder.

Why do you think I have almost not played at all the ladders?

I am starting to think you are reading this thread only partially or even lack a proper education, if you still don't understand what is wrong with your accusations.

No I really do not get what is wrong with my accusations: the abuse of multi accounts is against ToS and he is clearly abusing of his multi accounts. I cannot prove what it seems clear even to a blind but not to you, still you can't say he is using his 5 accounts in a appropriate way (or are you saying even that?). You are just insulting me instead of him, calling him god or other shit like that and telling me that I am dumb, stupid and jealous. Now you say even that I "lack a proper education".

Edited 9/30/2021 19:52:05

@Quicksilver, other way around, if you wish to be the "Se god" then you have to challenge Ozi. Ozi has proven hes top 3 many times, i personally believe Beep Beep is better for reasons of personal experience, but Ozi is certainly top 3.

@Ercole: The concrete rule around multi-accounting (from https://www.warzone.com/wiki/Rules) is

You shall not operate more than one Warzone account that participates in the same game, tournament, ladder, clan war, or in any way gives you an advantage or gives you points or coins.

It deliberately excludes Quickmatch. This site's multi-accounting restrictions are pretty lax in practice, although the Terms of Service restrictions (https://www.warzone.com/TermsOfService) prohibit multiple accounts entirely:

I. Terms
"Accounts" in this document refer to a User who registers with Warzone.com, LLC. to obtain permission to access certain site features.
"User(s)" in this document refer to a person or persons who have visited any Web Site owned by Warzone.com, LLC or used any app owned by Warzone.com, LLC.
...
XVI. Online Conduct and Abuse
...Unacceptable uses and behavior that is deemed unacceptable include, without limitation: ... (ix) opening and/or using multiple Accounts;

As far as practical enforcement goes, the narrow limitations in the Rules seem to supersede the stricter Terms of Service (which makes sense, since Terms of Service tend to be broad).

you can't say he is using his 5 accounts in a appropriate way (or are you saying even that?)

My understanding of this site's enforcement policy is that they presume you're using alts appropriately absent compelling evidence to the contrary. Players themselves do not have to prove that they are using their accounts appropriately unless there is evidence of inappropriate use (beyond simply having multiple accounts).

If you believe Ozijs has violated the Rules (or the Terms of Service), you should report him with the evidence (https://www.warzone.com/Report?p=20114369969). The moderators and site admins likely have access to whatever data would be needed to check if Ozi has played himself on any of his other accounts. Absent a link to a game where Ozijs played himself in QM, non-moderators have no practical means of determining whether he has cheated in Quickmatch. This discussion can only realistically be pursued by moderators at this point. As you've noticed, the community (of non-moderators) has so little to contribute that much of this thread has simply collapsed into insults and circular discussion.

Operating multiple accounts in Quickmatch is definitely not against the rules in and of itself, since the moderators know I have ~20 accounts with QM activity (for leveling up; all but 1 of those accounts is retired) and so far have not banned any for QM reasons. You can, however, get in trouble for voting from multiple QM accounts and presumably for playing yourself in QM.

Edited 9/30/2021 19:56:36

If you believe Ozijs has violated the Rules (or the Terms of Service), you should report him with the evidence (https://www.warzone.com/Report?p=20114369969). The moderators and site admins likely have access to whatever data would be needed to check if Ozi has played himself on any of his other accounts.

As I have wrote already I do not have any evidence of that, I am saying that there are a huge amount of ways in which you can game the system of this site using multi accounts in ways not predicted by the rules and he has done it for sure, he is a strong player but he is "undisputed" because he plays only with alts not letting anyone dispute his main and killing everyone else's rating with "low" rated alts if you want another accuse against him that is not the scouting.

If you are saying you have checked him and he's not feeding directly his main, I don't see how a report could be useful since his "cheats" are not against the current rules.

Still I think he his a cheater and he should not be allowed to play with 5 accounts in the same competition, but I am a small minorance it seems.

Edited 9/30/2021 20:05:52

lol clearly you know nothing about Ozi and his achievements, the whole QM thing is one of his minor ones. That's hardly one of the reasons he's considered a top ever se player.

Absent a link to a game where Ozijs played himself in QM, non-moderators have no practical means of determining whether he has cheated in Quickmatch. This discussion can only realistically be pursued by moderators at this point.

As a mod i cant see anything with regards to past games, so unless an actual game is linked in/with the report, it will probably get ignored. Maybe the admins that give the final verdict can see some more, but I doubt they have a lot of extra tools to see all common games between players X and Y.

EDIT: per JK, mods can't check games like this. Then I see two avenues: using the query game API to find QM games since Ozijs joined the site with his 2nd account and seeing if any of them have both Ozijs and one of his alts (this is doable by any Member, but impractical); or escalating to an admin (or Fizzer) who might have the capability to investigate.

Honestly, if the query game API approach would mollify your concerns, I could do that over the weekend...

---

TL;DR: Quickmatch is not meant to be taken seriously as a competition. Its only purpose is to get you a quick match.

Well, you could still file a report so the mods can (presumably) check Ozijs (and his alts') game logs to see if he's ever played himself on Quickmatch. That's what I would do I if I were in your place and had those suspicions.

I am saying that there are a huge amount of ways in which you can game the system of this site using multi accounts in ways not predicted by the rules

Yes, there's a balance involved. If you look at the other online turn-based Risk-like mulitplayer game sites, you'll notice that they pick the opposite presumption: Conquer Club/etc. ban players for multi-accounting, even without any gaming of the system. That creates its own set of frustrations (see: https://www.reddit.com/r/conquerclub/comments/a042i8/very_unwelcoming/). I, for one, appreciate Warzone's permissive alt policy, because the frustration of the other approach is much worse than the cost of low-profile gaming of the system. It's honestly very hard to meaningfully impact the outcome of a competitive event through detectable multi-account use, especially since competitive events are small enough to enforce alt policies. (If you join the MTL on an alt, you'll stick out.)

killing everyone else's rating with "low" rated alts

This is inevitable if you play QM with multiple accounts. Although honestly the impact of this sort of stuff is negligible relative to normal fluctuations in QM rating (if you look at the top 50 SEAD/SE1W QM rated players, you'll notice the active ones have ratings change by dozens of points daily).

The end-game is just that no one who plays seriously takes QM ratings seriously. But that's negligible, because QM ratings- like Min34 pointed out- aren't skill ratings at all anyway, due to the modifications QM applies on top of the TrueSkill rating system it uses.

Ozijs reputation as a top SE player does not come from his QM rating, just as Rene Descartes is not considered among the best players on the site in spite of his astronomical QM rating. QM rating leaderboards are nearly meaningless already.

Still I think he his a cheater and he should not be allowed to play with 5 accounts in the same competition, but I am a small minorance it seems.

This difference of opinion stems from the rest of us not viewing Quickmatch as a competition in the first place. Quickmatch is just a casual way to get a quick match, nothing more. If you want ratings/rankings with competitive meaning, you need to get them from the ladders, Clan League results, and P/R leagues.

Edited 9/30/2021 20:23:50

No I really do not get what is wrong with my accusations: the abuse of multi accounts is against ToS and he is clearly abusing of his multi accounts. I cannot prove what it seems clear even to a blind but not to you, still you can't say he is using his 5 accounts in a appropriate way (or are you saying even that?).

I can't speak for everyone else, but what I am telling you is:

(1) You haven't made a clear request here. You just accused someone of cheating. Let's hypothetically say he is cheating and we can prove it. Then what? Are you asking for him to be banned on all accounts? Or just his alts? Or just his main? To forcibly lower his ranking(s)? Raise your ranking? Ban him from playing QM? What are you actually asking to be done?

(2) You also haven't given any method to prove or clear the accusation you've lodged against him. What would constitute clear proof that he is not cheating? What evidence is required for you to concede that he isn't cheating?

(3) You aren't really being consistent even with your own message. In the text quoted above, you say "he is clearly abusing of his multi accounts", but then immediately afterward say " I cannot prove what it seems clear". So you say it's "clear abuse" but then say you "can't prove it" while using the word "seem". So you think it's somewhat clear but can't prove it. To the rest of us, it's not even clear. If you can't make it clear, you need to stand down. It's as simple as that. What you're doing is accusing some guy walking down the street outside of a supermarket of stealing because he is eating a candy bar that the supermarket sells b/c they are missing a box of candy bars from inventory. Is there footage of him inside the store stealing the candy bar? Did you at least see him steal it yourself? Any evidence whatsoever? If not, you can't just accuse some who might in some specific situation explain the circumstances as you see them. Just b/c you can't explain how the guy outside got a candy bar nor where the missing box of candy bars went, you simply cannot hold that guy accountable for it. This is how rules & logic work.

(4) If you don't understand & can't provide answers to the above 3 points, then there really is little point of continuing the discussion. Imagine if someone accused you of cheating but doesn't have proof. Would you also be okay with suffering the same punishment as to whatever your answer is for question #1 above if you are unable to authoritatively prove your innocence given whatever your answer is to #2?

To me, it doesn't come down to whether QM is a competition or not. It comes down to the fact that an accusation without any proof is as poor as anything can be, no matter the context.

It's, as krinid already indicated, among the most fundamental principles of logic that it's widely impossible to prove something has NOT been done. Accusing someone of wrongdoing and asking them to prove otherwise leaves them in an impossible situation. I have no chance to prove I never shared a bed with your mother or never killed a person. That's the reason why an accusation on a no-proof basis is a strong indication that the speaker might be stupid. It's nothing personal and not to defend Ozijs because he is something special or what at all.

Edited 10/1/2021 03:38:51

Hi guys im back. Lets keep it G-Rated

Ercole you are very unintelligent individual.

Rest of you, why are u argueing, just insult him?

Theoretically (although not practically) Ercole is right (for the wrong reasons).

Having many alts with a high winrate on a specific template means you drain rating from the total pool, putting it in your own alts. These rating points in your alts can be seen as a sort of bank. You control whether those points get added back to the system or remain in your other accounts.

Let's say you have infinite time on your hands and create 1,000 accounts to play one specific template and you win 91% of games. Your main account is already rated very very high in this case. Most of the rating for that template is now in your accounts, as your accounts get 1 rating point per won game and your opponents gain 10 per won game. Having over 91% winrate ensures you deflate the system with your alts. Of course you cannot play yourself, so your 'main' account which already had that high rating remains unaffected. Therefore you benefit even from not playing yourself but playing with multiple accounts.

Of course this is highly impractical and Rene hasn't done anything of the sort, but there is some effect to it.

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means you drain rating from the total pool

Ratings aren't zero-sum. In QM, due to the modifications to TrueSkill (halved rating decline below QM500), virtually everyone is a rating donor to the overall pool (yes, a high-rated player is going to have asymmetric outcomes because of matchmaking, but 1) that's how any skill-rating system works- the win/loss outcomes aren't symmetric, but both exchanges are and the expected outcome is 0- and 2) over a large number of games everyone's rating trends upwards).

In a normal Elo ladder, everyone just adds the average rating to the total pool. If you're worse than the average player (from before you joined), you inflate everyone else's ratings by donating the gap between your true/equilibrium rating and the average rating. If you're better than the average player (from before you joined), you deflate everyone else's ratings by withdrawing the gap between your true/equilibrium rating and the average rating. E.g., if a "true" 1926-rated player joins the 1v1 ladder today with 426 players, their impact at Elo equilibrium will be to deflate everyone else's ratings by 1 point; if a "true" 1074-rated player joins, 1501 becomes the new 1500 (in the long run).

In QM, you grow the pool (including your account) because of the safeguards around rating loss resulting in asymmetric rating exchanges (ignoring mu/sigma, which makes truly symmetric rating exchanges less common). Every <QM500 loss of yours grows the pool by half the stakes, by growing your opponent's rating more than it shrinks yours.

So this thousand-account cheater would wind up donating to the QM rating pool. If they're able to aggregate most of the QM rating themselves, that would require them to have a high stable rating themselves.

Beneath the modifications, QM is a valid skill-rating system (if everyone keeps playing forever). The rating at which you reach a 90.9% (10/11) win rate (10 +1's, 1 -10) is your "true"/equilibrium rating. It's just that once you get close-ish to your rating (when you break QM matchmaking), it takes forever to reach your true rating since you'll hardly even notice if your real win rate is 95% and not 91%. So to execute the rating-aggregation attack you described, you'd have to deserve that high a rating in the first place anyway.

Functionally all you're describing is being very good at QM and having a bunch of accounts all converge to your true rating (while all inflate QM ratings in the process). You're eating up a large percentage share, sure, just like what would happen if Rufus played the MTL with 10 accounts, and you're generating the usual rating deflation that happens when a higher-than-average-skill player joins a ladder (10 Rufuses on the MTL would make 1440 the new 1500), but even that is significantly offset by the rating inflation from QM's safeguards. This isn't rating manipulation; it's just being good, at scale.

Edited 10/1/2021 23:44:11

please dont flame me

when ercole first mentioned his theory that ozijs boosted his QM rating by playing is alts in our clan chat, i immediately shot it down. ozijs is clearly the SE goat. he has delivered me some of my most shameful losses, where he predicted all of my moves multiple turns in a row.

i remember when i first ran into his most recent alt Ulquiorra Cifer (now gone). after 1 game i was shook. i had looked up his rating before our match and expected certain things. i could immediately tell he was a master playing on an alt. by our third game, i already was asking him postmatch, who is your main? part of me already knew. i was grinding some QM points and tbh, i was a bit upset at the time. it does suck losing 10 points to someone who is better than you, and playing with a low rating. so basically, i understand where ercole could be coming from about others gaming the system for whatever reasons.

looking it up now, i am lifetime 8-28 vs ozijs. im no means one of the best SE players, but i almost know what im doing at this point. alot of those games were when i first started playing, back when he was still active on ozijs.

i say all this just to point out out impressive his QM rating really is. not all of our games were played in QM, but if they had been he would be down a ton of points -80~ for +30~. so yeah, being a good 500 points ahead of the #10 player is really freaking impressive. i wonder myself how he did it. sure, he has the skill to grind all of those points, no one would dispute that. but SE1W is a silly template sometimes, where even the best players can be tricked, or make 1 mistake which can lead to defeat. its the nature of the template.

anyways, there is clearly no proof for these accusations. but how could there be? no one knows your match history unless you share game links, even mods from what some of the mods posted in this thread. i think the only shred of speculative evidence is that ozijs did hide his win% on all of his alts, so maybe he did that because after feeding his main a few times, he could only boast a 89% winrate.

just my thoughts, not accusing anyone, just what i thought after reading through yalls discussions. flame away

also heres a fun game where he destroyed my life and made me quit warzone for a whole day https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=26131878

anyways, there is clearly no proof for these accusations. but how could there be? no one knows your match history unless you share game links, even mods from what some of the mods posted in this thread. i think the only shred of speculative evidence is that ozijs did hide his win% on all of his alts, so maybe he did that because after feeding his main a few times, he could only boast a 89% winrate.

Can someone link all of Ozijs' known accounts?

Ozijs' join date is only 2020/01/08, so there have been only about 8M games since he joined. A Member (e.g., me) could query those games (at 1 request/second, that would take 3 months; at 10 requests/second, it would take just over a week*), find which ones are QM, and then dig up the whole QM history of all of Ozijs' accounts to see if he played himself on alts.

Then we can let this rest.

* Farah sticks to 1 request/second after an unpleasant experience with a multi-threaded script. We could maybe get more ambitious than this with exponential backoff logic if something goes wrong.

Edited 10/2/2021 00:42:30

uh, not really suggesting an investigation, lol. just sharing my thoughts. not everything is pitchforks and legal proceedings.

I dunno entirely what this is all about but what I'm getting here is that a guy's rating is so good that people are saying he's cheating by playing against his alts

kinda rooting that he isn't a cheater now, that'd be pretty damn alpha