Now in your new clan you are happy to take free 2v2 wins and you have no problem to also gang up in templates to get easier matchups.

Crazy already answered to that. If you are willing to read it, you will get it.
We only gang up as you are saying small earth templates, just because we know that’s the only place we can find you. Not to avoid you, like you did in the past and possibly still doing. That’s a huge difference.

With you saying participate even if it means you instantly surrender the game to lower our rating and I don’t want them to stop improving it’s a bit odd to my eyes, but whatever suits you. The only progress you have made is at SE1W and bomb templates. You started those templates because back when I was at MH, masters were crushing us at every other template. Now it’s enjoyable to you and the members. Be my guest.

I am not going to do this. Since masters decided that we should not bother with cw, I don’t care at all. But some times it’s hard for me to see comments like that.

As I said in the previous comment. You increased your skill, your participation, everything is good now. You have no opponent to fight, so let’s hope that’s enough for you to continue playing.

Stone:
Morale high ground? Lol. Ofc we are. We play the game not the system. I didnt even try to defend addy. He is a dick, he knows it, I know it, everyone knows it. But at least he has some sense of humour. As for the bomb templates… literally nothing to say.

PS: and the fact that you don’t realise that he knows dom pretty well and he is talking to him as an online “friend” it’s adorable.

Cheers

Edited 12/6/2021 22:44:19

Forsaken,

It didn't matter if dom was a friend or not. You can look up any of Addy's losses and that is how he talks to people he doesn't even know.

Oh and speaking of morale high ground

does anyone know which clan is jumping templates with like 5 seconds? It hasn't happened this season, but has a lot in the past the that players are switching templates with a just a few seconds so that their opponents don't get a game. Its usually bomb-comm games and last slot of the day, and its 3 or 4 players so has to be one of those active clans. I only bring it up because it leads to players, often my teammates not getting games. We like bomb-comm we don't hide it, seem kinda dirty to have us miss out on games. I doubt it Masters as Forsaken said, they play the game, not the system and aren't trying to avoid us like supposedly were are them.


Let us play our games, if you don't want to play bomb-comm then don't join and withdraw, our players do play other templates :)

I didnt want to answer to you in the first place, but I did out of respect to my previous clan.
But I will stop that now, after saying just this.
You do know that you make and assumption, without any proof or whatsoever, and then an accusasion based on that assumption right? You can see how stupid that seems, I hope.
And not only that. You are complaining about 3-4 games while you lost the season for roughly 150 games. And those switches had nothing to do with Masters, as far as I know.
So that being said, have a nice day.

Edited 12/6/2021 22:30:31

does anyone know which clan is jumping templates with like 5 seconds?

isnt that for getting a free win on a bad template, but finding out last seconds that there are opponents so you switch to the better template?

I never made a accusation. I said it was an active clan even in fact said I doubt it was yours. Sorry if you assumed that was sarcasm. I wanted to point out that some one is using this shady tactic and it should stop completely. It messed up for some one to make time for game, and then not get one because of a shady tactic.

Thanks for clearing it up that it wasn't you.

JK - No the times it has happen there is often 10 + total players and then 4 or 5 leave not giving other players time to switch. It is to many too be coincidental. I think last time it happens it was SE1W and bomb comm. 3 of my teammates missed games because of it. Not exactly jumping for a few win in SE1W. and its not like my teammates wouldn't have played SE1W if given the the option.

Edited 12/6/2021 22:54:40

@Marcus
You're right in all that you said, but your final point is the key, l4v's trending data shows a decline in interest, which should mean an associated decline in WZI activity, and thus should generate interest. Also, most (admittedly not all, but most) of what we're recommending would increase interest in CW for everyone (not just the top clans) and thus also generate overall interest in WZI, and thus I think we the people & Fizzer should be aligned on this.

Tbh though, I'd be happy with just having a fun CW system with no rewards other than a leaderboard - not dissimilar to QM (ignoring coin games), just for clans instead of individual.

I even had to take a break from Warlight because I could feel the burnout of having to log on every single day to play, and was starting to not enjoy this game anymore.

And that is the problem. Everything else is manageable, but this needs to be fixed. You just can't kill the love for the game, else it defeats everything else you hope to accomplish. When the competition format makes the game not fun, it's a serious problem. And if it makes it not fun for the WZC-centric crowd, imagine what it does to the primarily WZI crowd who are just trying out WZC CW to get some WZI rewards.

@Norman

On average days, we have something like 35 players joining. TSFH never had those activity levels btw ;)

Agreed, I mentioned this many times among the TSFH crew as several would say that we could overcome MH in rankings by playing more, and I told them, Nope, we lose b/c we not only have lower WR but also less games played - add that together and it's insurmountable, but many don't see that. So either get much better, or play much more often - and we did neither, so 3rd place it was. lol

Edited 12/6/2021 22:58:46

At the end of the day, the data speaks for itself. Fizzer created a great game, it's true. But a great game needs to adapt and evolve, and this game simply isn't doing that.

In other games, this is less of an issue. Other games are less married to a particular way of doing things, and have teams of people that conduct surveys and learn from data. Fizzer doesn't have that. That's part of the problem in being a small indie company.

To make up for that, Fizzer has to be super engaged with the community, at least until it is big enough that he can hire the teams of people that I mentioned. But he hasn't done that. Fizzer has stated many times that ultimately, "he wants to make a game he wants to play."

I respect that. I also believe some people who commented here are right - from a business perspective, this game is better to cater to the casuals than to the strategic community. But the data is clear, it doesn't even cater to the casuals. Hell, even basic intuition about how the entire game mode is set up should tell you that.

So Fizzer has to choose. Does he want the game to expand and thrive? Or does he want to keep it a "game he wants to play"? I have a feeling it's the 2nd answer.

So... as a community... if our interests directly conflict with those of the game creator...

hmm....

HMM...

...
..
.

haha just kidding... unless?

Also the questions

"Are the M'Hunters really annoying about Clan Wars???" and

"Can the Masters sometimes be assholes??" are kinda distracting from the actual issue.

The answers to both are a resounding yes. Now please carry on.

We only gang up as you are saying small earth templates, just because we know that’s the only place we can find you. Not to avoid you, like you did in the past and possibly still doing. That’s a huge difference.

You were most certainly not ganging up in Strat 1v1 in order to farm us there. Sadly I can not find the Discord posts currently where (I believe it was) Master of Desaster said that you did it in order to avoid Python.

I am not judging here btw. Both of our clans tried to win the CW seasons. We refreshened our aging player base with the help of CW and your clan recruited for CW. We tried to farm lower ranked wins and your clan were trying to farm lower ranked wins. We tried to farm free wins and your clan tried to farm free wins. I asked my clanmates to avoid clans above their skill level (we went something like 2:20 in Strat 1v1 at the start of season 3) and so did your clan. We went for templates where we have an edge over the competition and you went for templates where you have an edge over the competition.

If I would judge you for playing CW in a way to win it would be a bizarre hypocrisy from me and the same is of course true vice versa. Trying to win CW is btw not mutually exclusive with enjoying the templates and the notion of the mathematical reality that losses have a similar value to wins is also not mutually exclusive with the desire to improve.

It seems like CW as presently implemented creates perverse incentives because the way Norman describes it all this gaming of the system is perfectly rational behavior. And yet I don't think trying to game free wins is what people would join a RT competitive event for- it's a little bit distanced from what's supposed to make an event like CW fun to play.

We tried to farm lower rank wins??!! I am afraid that I cannot agree.... we almost always have the highest clan wars rating (I believe it was always above 500 back then, now I have no idea as I don't care about CW anymore, around 400 maybe?) which means the toughest oppo. And wdym by we tried to avoid players above our skill level?? We will and in general want to get some tough oppos so we are unlikely to waste our time in playing some games that act as a compulsory duty to finish. Most importantly, in all likelihood, play against strong oppos can help you improve... not farming wins....

Actually, the Republic of Korea has the highest clan war rating ;)

Which is honestly so stupid it makes me laugh. Like wtf? We barely play?? who designed this rating algorithm????

If that ain't proof Clan Wars needs to be changed, idk what is.

Also, say it with me

"The M'Hunters are really annoying about Clan Wars." Say it, breathe. It's ok. This argument is literally pointless. They are judging everything on completely different criteria than you.

I do agree with knyte about CW having perverse incentives though.

who designed this rating algorithm????

Microsoft. Clan War Rating is modified TrueSkill. The algorithm itself is sound but the feature engineering and usage on Warlight does not make sense given the properties of the TrueSkill algorithm.

TrueSkill was made for Xbox multiplayer lobbies, so you would be able to rate the same player consistently across, e.g., 1v1, 2v2, FFA, and even lopsided (e.g., 6v3) multiplayer matches. Warlight uses TrueSkill in QM and CW, and used it in the past in the Real-Time Ladder. However the way Warlight uses TrueSkill in each of these places fails to leverage the benefits of TrueSkill and introduces serious problems. For one, in CW, rating and matchmaking at exclusively the clan level leads to predictably bad matchmaking at the player level for players whose skill level deviates considerably from the participation-weighted average skill of their clan. For another, you run into the Ursus problem- where high-skill players only benefit from their high skill in clans where the average skill level is also very high. Otherwise, their wins become their clanmates' losses.

I think the fundamental issue is that Fizzer does not trust skill rating and matchmaking systems to do their job, so we get systems that pursue goals inconsistent with skill-rating systems and so fail at the basic objectives of skill-based competitions: accurately gauging player skill (as a predictive metric of win probability) and generating high-excitement matches between players of roughly equal skill. All the skill-rated competitions on WZ involve unnecessary grinding of the exact sort that skill rating and matchmaking systems are supposed to avoid. Even the MTL struggles with this to some extent. Because everyone thinks they're so clever enough to modify an elegant and beautiful system like a skill rating algorithm with some tacked-on duct-taped tweak... but they just make it worse and ugly because they never bothered to understand how and why these systems work in the first place.

But your concern seems to be about accuracy. Well, a rating is accurate insofar as it correctly fits and predicts future outcomes. Korea clan does consist of some top-skill players on SE templates. Did you reliably win the bulk of your games? And if Korea clan members ran into, e.g., Python, would you be expected to win >50% of the time on CW (considering who plays from Python, not just the average skill level of the clan)?

If so, then the rating output of the algorithm makes sense given the data it has to work with. If not, we could look at what happened.

Edited 12/7/2021 08:43:19

The rating algorithm does make sense. I just think the rating should probably reset between seasons. But yeah, also TrueSkill seems bad on warzone.

Actually, the Republic of Korea has the highest clan war rating ;)

Which is honestly so stupid it makes me laugh. Like wtf? We barely play?? who designed this rating algorithm????

If that ain't proof Clan Wars needs to be changed, idk what is.

Only the very best of your clan currently participate in CW and this on the one template your clan specialices in. HI ITISKOREA plays frequently against the highest ranked opponent clans and he beats them on average. If the template assignment would be randomized your clan would drop in rating but since it is not, it makes sense for me that you are at the top.

Edit: I was too late with my answer.

Edited 12/7/2021 08:45:18

TrueSkill is great. But Warzone's application of TrueSkill is like Deepak Chopra's application of quantum mechanics: it only makes sense if you know the words but don't understand what they mean.

Crudely estimated daily participation (rather than slot level) since Xeno asked. The forecast is the sum of forecasted sign-ups for that day based on a linear regression for each slot, and the rolling sum is based on the most recent sample in the data set for each time slot. These are going to be fairly inaccurate and just contextualize the general trend, because I never actually sampled a full day's worth of CW sign-ups except for the most recent slots at the time of this thread creation.

If this linear trend continues (it probably won't), CW would die sometime in late 2022 or early 2023. By this time in 2023, the linear forecast would expect CW participation to have dropped all the way down to -220 per day. :O

Edited 12/7/2021 10:33:09