Mosquierto, Group B is not determined. There is one spot open and that is why the new clan that is the best can earn a spot there. I figured it was understood that [20] would beat any new clan entering if they want to compete. The rules are 2 clans promoted, 2 clans reglated from each group. The idea is also to have 7 clans in each group if possible. So by these rules, there will only be 6 clans in Group B. That is why there is an open spot.

This clan league is a Joke! , its only Jsa's groupie preference, [20] will NEVER play it!
Warlight is going to have soon (fizzer in working) an official clan league/clan ranking system for official clans, so who fuck cares about that shit!

Good luck in your #NON-Official! clan battles!

JSA: do you agree on that we already have a precedence on the question in what group new clans should be assigned to? This question is LONG answered after a lengthy and intense discussion: CLANS NEW TO THE CLAN LEAGUE HAVE TO WORK THEIR WAY BOTTOM UP. GG would have had to start from group C or D if there had been one in the Third Clan League.

I have not the slightest doubt, [20] will fight its place in the appropriate group very quickly after 1 or 2 seasons.

OMG beware of mighty beelzebub.
For example i care. Good work in organize JSA. Thx.
Btw is 20 new elite clan, i imagine belzebub is your new mighty leader? Good luck with this shitty clan member, you already gain yourself bad reputation just after clan started.

I've never seen [20] compete under the name [20] against other clans. If they ever start, though, watch out.

I haven't heard from you in a while Beelzebub. Although honestly, I've had no pleasurable experiences with you. The first time we met was when you tried to make your own clan league about the same time I made mine back when I was still in [P]. The second time you stalled mine, along with 3 other ladder games so you could get first one the ladder. I hope you don't speak for all of [20], but if you do, so be it.

I hope Fizzer does make an official clan league/clan ranking system, but until he does, I plan to continue doing the best we can without this official system.

New clans should start from the bottom. It has been discussed, and we all agreed on this before. Changing the rules now would be extremely unfair - especially to GG clan.

Promotion relegation leagues somehow work (1v1 p/r as far as i remember will be hosted for the 11th time, and it works perfectly as-is).

JSA, our lord your personal opinion should not matter here.

There's still the point that if the group size is 7, *someone new* will need to fill the last spot on B (assuming we only have 13 returning clans for next season).

Edited 11/3/2013 19:23:35

How would it be changing the rules by putting a new clan in B League? If you recall, last season was a completely different scenerio. I've stuck by 4 rules to the clan league so far.

1. 2 clans from each group must be promoted and 2 must be reglated
2. Each group shall have 7 clans, with the exception of the bottom group
3. Superpromotions take priority over new clans.
4. New clans fill in the open spots, and if there are not enough open spots, another league is formed.

Those four simple rules work under nearly any scenerio. The rules are done in order and it runs smoothly. The best open spot in the third clan league was Group B and that is where [GG] was put. The best open spot in the fourth clan league will be Group B as well and that is where the best new clan will go.

Exceptions to rule 1 occur at the top-most group and the bottom-most group. If you follow Chokecherry's methods, there should be *no* relegations from group B into group C because group C currently doesn't exist. Because B is the bottom group, there are no relegations from B.

There is also technically no way to rank new clans except by personal opinion, voting, etc, because there is no head-to-head history for the new clans. This is why in Chokecherry's league, all new players start out at the same level, even if it means there are multiple groups (for instance C1 and C2).

Therefore, following Chokecherry's methods, the next season would look like this:

Group A: WM, Apex, AHOL, WG, BIA, GG, VIW
Group B: WL, REGL, 101st, Warlighters, Master, Dragon, MC (replaced by BR if MC drops out)
Groups C1, C2, etc: BR (if group B has 7 clans), all other new clans.

*However*, maybe this isn't the optimal way to go about it. Maybe BR doesn't want to stay in group B, for instance. Maybe we don't want to wait several months until the newer clans begin playing at the level more befitting their skill level. But if we follow the letter of the rules, this is how it should go.

We aren't following Chokecherry's method though. This is not going to be exactly the same as the promotion/reglation league except with clans. The Clan League tries to make better matchups so everyone can enjoy it more. The promotion/reglation league treats every new player exactly equal. That's fine, but it leads to less interest in the clan league and less competition at the higher levels.

But, you are right about the exception. Here's how the rules should be amended to fix that problem:

1. 2 clans from each group must be promoted and 2 must be reglated
a. If there will be no group added for the next clan league, the 2 clans that are scheduled to be reglated will stay in their current league.
b. Group A clans can not be promoted.
2. Each group shall have 7 clans, with the exception of the bottom group
3. Superpromotions take priority over new clans.
a. This means that if a clan wins a group, they are guarenteed to be at least equal with a new clan.
4. New clans fill in the open spots, and if there are not enough open spots, another league is formed.
a. If the new clans are to be put in different leagues, Group A's clans will be in charge of ranking them.

These are the rules I would like to use in all clan leagues so please point out any other errors you see in them so that I can fix them and make sure it runs smoothly.

Edited 11/3/2013 20:38:44

MC is now ahead of Dragon. MC is either 5th/6th (But that doesn't matter here) and Dragon is 7th.

There's still the point that if the group size is 7, *someone new* will need to fill the last spot on B (assuming we only have 13 returning clans for next season).

If you keep Dragon in Group B (Relegating only BR) then you have 7. This kind of makes sense as Dragon/MC/Master were pretty close (With Dragon falling ever so slightly behind.)

Promotion relegation leagues somehow work (1v1 p/r as far as i remember will be hosted for the 11th time, and it works perfectly as-is).

With this, there are actually more promotions and less relegations going on as Chokecherry (Now Frank) has to deal with a constantly-changing roster of people joining and leaving the league. It works very well in its own right, but isn't compatible with JSA's set of rules. Of course, clans are a lot less likely to leave than players.

If you actually look carefully at the Pro/Rel league Chokecherry puts new people on a first-come/first serve basis, sometimes having one or two of the first new players in a higher level group than the others. People probably don't complain as much as 1) Each season is pretty short, about 1-2 months and 2) First come/first serve is completely objective.

Also I'm pretty sure MC is a dead clan by now.

Someone should probably see if it's actually dead. >.>

Group A - new clans,

Groups B - old group A

Group C - old group B!

New clans should start in A and fight their way to B - which will be the true A! everybody will have nearer to the top cause previous group B will try to get promoted! and 2 calns from A will get promoted to play with the new clans, as well as 2 will get relegated to fight the former low tier!

Awesome, isn't it?



don't change the rules. Start from bottom. it's a LEAGUE. or make draws and playoffs, but that's plain stupid and counterproductive if you want to rate clans this way.

Fridge, Please provide evidence I am changing the rules. I would love for you to point out one time so far that these rules have not been followed. The truth is, I have followed these rules all along, I am just now putting them into writing, which is long overdue.

The only possible reason I can see why you would disagree with me is if you think I am changing the rules. And I am not.

I am trying to make sure all of these rules can hold up for all future seasons as well as this one. Like I said, this is not Chokecherry's league, it's the Clan League. Ranking clans is the quickest and easiest way of deciding who gets the open spots.

yeah - and the best (easiest) way to rank them is by voting. Stop acting stupid. This is NOT chokecherry's, this is YOUR LEAGUE yeeeeeaaaaaaahhh - do you feel better now? you don't have to do anything differently to the ther event just to show you are better or something. the way chokecherry did it was FAIR. make it A B C1 C2 and don't force any of the new clans to be included anywhere higher than C. That was the rule implemented last time. NEW PEOPLE START FROM THE BOTTOM. NO CLAN SHOULD GET ANY HEAD START. what you propose is giving a head start to ONE of the NEW clans. That's against the rules we implemented last time, and i agree with mosquitero here it would not be fair or historically justified in any way.

First off, I reiterate my request to have this discussed among the clan representatives of at minimum group A, probably group B as well (there are a lot of good clans in group B). I think we should go with what the clans want.

Second, I find interesting the ideological divide of "clans of similar skill should play each other" vs. "clans should earn their way to the top competition". Both are valid opinions but it seems to me that they clash with each other a bit. Makes for a fascinating discussion I think. A particularly interesting wrinkle: technically Malamute and JSA are in the same clan now. :P

Personally I agree with Malamute here but I think both have good points.

Edited 11/3/2013 21:01:27

We are not in the same clan. JSA is neither [WM] nor [20]. As far as i know, he was never part of [20] clan, and for sure he was thrown out of WM very soon after joining it.

Edited 11/3/2013 21:05:42

What the hell are you talking about Fridge? I was not thrown out of [WM], I took the tag off my name because I am very inactive at the moment and haven't had time to be a real part of a clan. I was planning on readding the tag when I became active again. I've never wanted to be in [20] clan, I heard they weren't planning on doing very little clan activities, and I would prefer a more active clan than that.

Fridge, what you fail to realize in terms of this argument is that last time, clans were decided in a qualifying league (the 2nd clan league). This is the first real promotion/reglation shift of the clan league. There were no open spots in the third clan league in A, but there is an open spot in B for the 4th clan league. Do you not see the difference?

Pushover, I might as well ask the representatives of the clans, I'm not going to change my rules I put above unless the Group A clans vote with Mosquierto's idea. And Fridge isn't gonna quit complaining how my rules are so unterribly unfair either. So your option is best :)

JSA-Im not here to talk about skills with a completely noob player like you!
...you've never hold first place in 1v1 ladder, you've never hold top 3 in 2vs2 ladder after have changed hundreds of teamates...you do not have the slightest idea of how to play a game 3vs3 in europe......If you think you can improve your skills by continuing to change clan tag....i have a bad notice for you!
I hope at least you learned something from your trial period as a mascot in the 20.....

OMG beware of mighty beelzebub.
For example i care. Good work in organize JSA. Thx.
Btw is 20 new elite clan, i imagine belzebub is your new mighty leader? Good luck with this shitty clan member, you already gain yourself bad reputation just after clan started.

....said the clan leader of the FARM/BOOT clan, the clan with the best reputation in WL.

Now, after 418 days of inactivity, comes to me natural to ask ......Have Blitzy (http://warlight.net/Profile?p=979669229) stop to farm GG accounts or you just replaced him with another alt??

....Let's try to make this forum funny!!!

1) i am not complaining. I am disagreeing with your idea, JSA.

2) as far as i know, you are no longer in WM. it's up to Red, not me - so maybe i'm wrong - ask him. you joined only to collect the tag, we knew that from the beginning, gave you the opportunity to prove that wrong, and now that you achieved the tag, and removed it for no reason, we decided the trial has ended. you failed.