The issue is that it's way too easy to break the picket line. If M'H's slots aren't locked, up to 40 of your members can defect and you're forced to get the entire clan on board instead of just your CW participants. I don't think the boycott is remotely viable if you are forced to have hundreds of players resist the temptation to play each CW slot for possibly months.

There's a reason unions have all their collective organization rituals & systems to discourage breaking the picket line. They have to counter the incentives created by the job they're striking against.

Leaving clans seems extreme

Players going on strike over a video game is already extreme. If you're going to do something like this, do it right. Otherwise it's just a LARP.

primary purpose of community, and leaving it for a reaaaaaalllly long season is too destructive.

The community can live on in the strike clan, for just a season or two.

So this is "Myth Busters are recruiting to join boycott" topic now?
Why not "Myth Busters are recruiting for CW v2.0"? I really loved that idea from this or some other topic. Ofc organizing an competitive event takes more effort that to organize a boycott, but the returns seems more glorious.

Also during the last AMA (you got to believe me, because it seems to be present at WZ twitch/youtube channel) I asked Fizzer about whether there will changes to CW, because there are a lot of discussions in the forums. Fizzer's answer was, that he thinks about making changes CW, but 1) has no distinct changes in mind 2) there is no actual roadmap beside current release and 3) for now he is focused on 3D maps functionality.
This answer may ofc be treated as an excuse, but technically it is not the same as "CW is fine, no changes are planned".

Ofc organizing an competitive event takes more effort that to organize a boycott, but the returns seems more glorious.

Because automation is impossible due to visibility challenges and the Create Game API being handicapped for a dumb reason. You simply cannot build a successful real-time, casual-friendly community event without Fizzer's cooperation or without circumventing the API and breaking ToS in about a dozen places. Automation also requires significant time investment just to get something off the ground; it seems there is little appetite here. Most players, especially newer players or casuals, would not be able to join the CWv2 automated CLOT because they do not have all the settings unlocked (you need high 40's just to unlock Strat 1v1!). And even when you solve that, you have the advertisement disadvantage- how do you reach players? Only a tiny tiny fraction of this site notices conversations on the forums & Discord.

Both the automated and manual solutions require extreme time investment. I have run manual community events in the past (https://tinyurl.com/csldata, https://tinyurl.com/infinity-premier). Those sapped my time and led to burnout. I think those who have run high-effort community events in the past can attest to the same- there's a reason Clan League, which doesn't even require daily effort & already has a bunch of delegation, still changes organizers every 2 seasons. Even WGL couldn't keep up a consistent schedule.

The only avenue I see for a CWv2 is something fairly low-effort, like just creating a tournament series (a la AWP) or having the Query Game API run on QM and ranking clans based on QM results, which wouldn't require us to create the games ourselves.

In general, I'd advise against CWv2 because creating successful community events is an uphill battle for the community. This aspect of Warlight is not really decentralized and maker-friendly. If you want to build something sustainable and with reach beyond just the competitive strategic scene - you must either recruit Fizzer to do it or somehow convince him to get out of the way.

But like I said last time, I am more than happy to take a crack at building an Inter-Clan Ladder to obsolete CW & CL. I just do not have the time to do it entirely by myself in a reasonable timeframe. If someone else wants to help, DM me. We could spend months of our time creating something because apparently we can't convince Fizzer to take an hour of his time making tweaks to CW. Just guaranteeing Small Earth in every time slot would go a long way!

I asked Fizzer about whether there will changes to CW, because there are a lot of discussions in the forums. Fizzer's answer was, that he thinks about making changes CW, but 1) has no distinct changes in mind 2) there is no actual roadmap beside current release and 3) for now he is focused on 3D maps functionality.

That's been his answer in the past to basically anything. "Not on the immediate roadmap" is Fizzerspeak for "fizz off." Just search for its usage on the site. It does mean "no changes are planned."

Edited 9/21/2022 17:30:00

This answer may ofc be treated as an excuse, but technically it is not the same as "CW is fine, no changes are planned".

The CW is fine/no change planned answer was from the previous AMA, when I asked "the users think XXX is not good and would like YYY, are you making any changes to CW?" and that's when responded with "CW is working well, playership is higher than ever before, no changes are planned."

So technically, "I think about CW changes but have nothing planned" is a minor upgrade. lol. Or is it? At least before there was ambiguity, maybe he thought about it, maybe he didn't. Now we know he thought about it and still has nothing planned and is giving something else priority.

And to l4v's point, "not on the roadmap" and "not planned" means effectively not going to happen. He has limited cycles and he works on what he wants to work on, not what we want him to. As simple as that. And that seems to be 3D maps now I guess.

@l4v
Even leaving the clans after 1 game isn't enough. You know people can still contact Fizzer saying they only played 1 game and wave the limit, join & play with another clan that season. The guideline seems to be "small # of games played". A boycott was always going to be about restraint/refrain from the playerbase. That's why everyone has to be on board, to be serious about wanting change badly enough to stop playing.

Edited 9/21/2022 18:12:38

You know people can still contact Fizzer saying they only played 1 game and wave the limit, join & play with another clan that season.

Has anyone successfully done this other than Fizzer's own brother? I was able to get him to unlock me after a join-and-unjoin (so 0 games played, shouldn't even have been clan-locked at that point). Elucidar also joined 1 gamed on the very first slot and then switched clans.

I doubt he will do these unlocks en masse. Even then, the need to mail him and wait on him is a significant-enough barrier that crossing the picket line won't be as easy as just seeing a CW slot pop up and absentmindedly joining. And even after that, if players hang in the Strike Clan, only 40 can become scabs without leaving that clan and giving up the community.

Like I said earlier, if you're going to do this, set yourself up to succeed instead of coming up with a strategy that requires significant willpower & widespread cooperation. Don't just stake everything on an assumption of future dedication. Organize!

Convincing 100+ players to leave their clans will be more difficult than having them just not play CW.

If we're really gonna get CW v2 going, it makes sense to do that first showing a better example, then strike.

Looking into the future ... I predict ... we create CW v2, things go well, we strike on CW, we get attention, minor CW tweaks are made, the biggest change is now an official CW roster that you must purchase each season (250 coins for a 10 player roster, +5 coins per player thereafter up to 40) where you add players in/out instead of just the first 40 playing. Nothing much else changes.

Convincing 100+ players to leave their clans will be more difficult than having them just not play CW.

For a whole season, which- if your plan works- will stretch on for 3 months? I doubt it. You also don't need to convince them to leave. You just need to make those the terms of the boycott: play CW once, after which the leader will kick you out and you will receive an invite to the strike clan. It's the same effort as convincing them to join the boycott, with the difference that they won't then have to resist the temptation of every single slot, 6 times a day for months on end.

we create CW v2, things go well, we strike on CW, we get attention, minor CW tweaks are made, the biggest change is now an official CW roster that you must purchase each season (250 coins for a 10 player roster, +5 coins per player thereafter up to 40) where you add players in/out instead of just the first 40 playing. Nothing much else changes.

If you're serious, then we just need to spend our effort creating community events instead of trying to get Fizzer to help or change things.

But I do not understand why no one seems to be willing to commit any time to that, nor why you keep insisting on a proposal that you've noted is not going to make much of a dent instead of on systemic solutions that make this bold endeavor likely to succeed instead of collapse 2-3 days in from lack of interest & willpower. If we can't actually organize to achieve results in some way, it sounds like the complaints are shallow.

Edited 9/21/2022 19:49:10

I as Harmony manager (one of 4 active managers) want to explain my position regarding the situation.

Firstly, Harmony will not be giving orders to its players on what to do. All of our participation is voluntary. Ordering players around is against clan ideals. If any individual player doesn't join, someone else will join his slot. We ask our players to play ever 3 days and those who join and don't do it, get warned and potentially kicked. This position is supported by other managers as well.

So far my personal proposed approach is stopping any financial support of Fizzer and then sending mail to him and speaking about it in forums. Fizzer would be contacted regularly on daily basis until he caves. For example a map could be released with anti Fizzer agenda and advertised on open games, or open game names themselves could be changed to "MESSAGE" or new alt accounts are made with "MESSAGE" as username. Just some ideas.

---

Based on what we see about ~20% of our players (out of ~180 currently, from which ~165 have played in last 3 days.) at the moment play in clan wars, there are no complaints about not fitting into 40 player limit therefore this data is somewhat accurate. If this is extended to other clans, for any given ~40 player capped clan it results into ~8 interested players, which seems to hold up in https://wz-clanwars.netlify.app statistics. This showcases that feature is not popular in Warzone community.

Among our players who play there, some only prefer clan wars above all else due to their real time nature. Some do it for idle rewards. We got players who really like 2v2's or some exotic template like Guiroma and actively await for them. Clan prestige is not brought up, I do not think that many do it just for the being best clan or something. We explicitly tell our players that they should only play if it's fun and so far they've been following it. I openly discourage anyone who is unsure if clan wars will be fun for them.

---

These are my following proposals:

• 1 coin reward for wining a game. This should give motivation for every single victory compared to motivation for every 15 victories, plus more personalized and universal. Should not result in much profit for players, so should not make Fizzer go Bankrupt.
  
• Assign score value to each template, for example Small Earth autodistribution is 1 point, Other 2 earth maps 2 points, strategic Earth 1v1, Guiroma, MME commanders 3 points, French Brawl and MME Multiattack 4 points, strategic 2v2 10 points (5 per player). When a clan gets enough points, it earns a territory, this way players are motivated to try more complicated/slower templates.
  
• Personalized rewards for top 20 or 30 players. This way players of any clan get some rewards independently of how their clan performed globally. This would give motivation for lower ranked clan players to play.
  
• Tie templates to full currently played Quickmatch template list and add templates suggested from best performing clans. This way there would be much more variety. Also bonus templates can be added based upon current seasonal ladder and some suggestions from previous top 5 clans (Their managers can set suggested templates in their clan management panel and on clan placing high enough, those or some of those templates will become official for the duration of next clan Wars season). This will provide more fun and variety for the community.

Those are my current suggestions, I might make more of them over time. After I and other Harmony managers learn more about finalized demands, we will discuss the mater and decide if and in what way we will express our support. Once we got our recommendations, our individual clan wars participants will be informed on what they could do. There will be no punishment for any Harmony player who ignores strike.

---

In short the biggest issue comes from 40 player clan cap (not clan wars cap), lack of personalized rewards, no template variety, no scoring difference based on template complexity. These are the biggest issues which should be addressed.

Fizzer's indifference towards clan wars is insulting and demands community reaction. If Fizzer is facing health issues, creative burn out or anything else, he should be more open about it. Current clan wars system weakens communities' faith in Fizzer, which results in higher odds of quitting Warzone or stopping to support Fizzer financially. It is in Fizzer's best interest to address this situation.

Our remaining managers are:

• Nave https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=8115209937
  
• Kcebnroh https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=3578141570
  
• καλλιστηι https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=51131559866

Edited 9/21/2022 22:00:35

It could be Fizzer just thinks its funny we want to change the competition.
He doesnt seem to care much.

I wrote him a longer email and I wrote "everyone want change".
Of course there are a few who like clan wars as it is too.

He responded:

"Funny, I just talked to someone participating in clan wars who said it was interesting already! So it seems like your facts are incorrect. Sorry."

So either he is happy he found someone who like it the way it is or he just like to make fun of all of us who wants the change.

If he really care what one player thinks I asked him to put up a poll.
Sometimes i wonder:

1) He dont care
2) He dont know

As long as he he wont which one it is Ill continue to try to help him understand.

Funny, I just talked to someone participating in clan wars who said it was interesting already! So it seems like your facts are incorrect. Sorry.

Is this an actual quote or a paraphrase?

Actual:

First he quotes me: Then he said that :)

"Everyone agree there needs to be change to make it interesting."

Funny, I just talked to someone participating in clan wars who said it was interesting already! So it seems like your facts are incorrect. Sorry.

i thought i wrote stuff but…
i’ll read all 7+pages in the next day to get an idea of peoples thoughts and feelings.
i’ve been invited by eternity to be the harmony liaison in this matter. if i continue it will be with two conditions, we need a discord for this and only one liaison per clan. the liaison is not the voice of the clan only a go between.
there are often better resolutions than strike (everyone looses) but regardless the clans need to be united or we’ll fail.
last, if you’re not prepared to be booted don’t join.

yeah I think the boycott is the wrong plan. I'm not sure fizzer would even notice a longer season.

Fizzer's view is: There will always be some who dont like things.

Telling him all [who you have talked to] are the same opinion, wouldnt make a change, because all [who he has talked to] like Clan Wars obviously.

If you do a poll... His point will be people who are in like of CW would not actively search for a poll/thread to vote for no change, foremost the complainer would participate. Its the same bread.

If you boycott it... Well you can try, but I think it would mainly help other clans who play CW less competitive and they will then like it more. Giving Fizzer another reason why he should keep it as it is.

As long as this CW button is flashing and rubbing it under everyones nose that a CW Timeslot is available, it will be really difficult to stop a handfull of players playing and liking CW.

You should just be aware of this.

Edited 9/22/2022 12:39:58

yes but if the top 5 clans and anyone else who is interested make a collective action, it will garner attention

Have you considered a hunger strike?

Not to dismiss your suggestion offhand, rakleader, but I don't see how it would work. How would Fizzer know we're not eating? Could you elaborate as to the logistics?

Yours Truly,
L4v.r0v

"Everyone agree there needs to be change to make it interesting."

Funny, I just talked to someone participating in clan wars who said it was interesting already! So it seems like your facts are incorrect. Sorry.

This is such a non-response. To be fair, your message was ambiguous - ie: make it "interesting", and "everyone". Shouldn't use "everyone" b/c everyone means 100% all players, and if he finds 1 player who doesn't agree, gives him an easy out to disregard your statement. And if he can't find one, he considers himself a player anyhow and he counts as the 1 player.

Though tbh I agree with him - CW is interesting, it's just not as good as it could be. Not even close. It's a 3/10 and it could be a 8+/10 with minor tweaks.

Since we know his default response is to dismiss requests/ideas, the message needs to be something that isn't easily dismissible with 1 counterexample and is in fact based on the community and not just a few folks' opinions. Then we could say that the community in general feels there are major areas of CW that are dissatisfactory and would like to see improvements/changes X,Y,Z.

But also keep in mind that if you aren't getting something along the lines of "that's ridiculous, that's not true, idea dismissed", you're next best bet is "that's actually a good idea, but it's not on the roadmap" which means essentially "I've got 99 things planned for the future of WZ, and your suggestion ain't 1".

For WZ classic games, the other variant is, "great idea, have someone write a mod to do that".

Getting back to CW ... he does get a bit of a pass here (beyond being the culprit of having made a fun idea but implementing it very poorly. [To be clear, the idea of CW is fantastic {casual clan competition that anyone can participate in, not just the top players in a clan like CL}, the mechanics it uses are absolutely terrible]) b/c we've never achieved community consensus on what improvements we need. There's always 1 person who comes in and says "actually instead of X I'd like it like this Y instead".

Things like discussions on CW rosters, currently capped at 40 players per season. Some wants unlimited rosters, others want 30, others want 20 or 15 or 10. Others want CW rating changes, other want divisions, etc. It's really hard to ask for change when we can't even agree on simple things like these.

I guess another way of saying ^^ that is get a short list of commonly agreed to improvements, then present to Fizzer, but not l4v or me b/c we're both too wordy. lol

Someone that can be articulate in fewer words. But the real problem is getting agreement. Don't reach for the stars, focus on easy tweaks, low effort on Fizz's part so it doesn't have to even be a "roadmap" item. Just pick 5-10 easy to implement things that helps the community.

Good point krinid. This is why we need to organize. I propose we unionize: https://discord.gg/Y7RbpJMP