@Flex, You spend a lot of effort, both you individual and the clan collectively to win something of which you say there is no glory in winning. Surely this is indicative that you do find there to be some after all.

@l4v, The rewards were never truly game changing for Idle anyhow. While getting the rewards, the glory has really only ever been the same as CL, the glory of winning. I'd bet that you could drop the rewards entirely and still see people playing. Sure some would complain, some would stop playing - but I be those folks would be outside of the top 5 clans anyhow (max top 10), which is where all the action is.

As for alts ... let's just say blame the system. In principle, I agree with Cicero, pick a clan and stake your claims to glory on that clan. But as we've been saying here, the user base primarily uses clans as a means for community and other forms of competition (intraclan training, and intra & inter-clan competition), then CW + 40 cap came along and borked it - let's call CW the secondary use of clans. The primary and secondary uses are almost directly as odds with one another. You need to cannibalize one for the other. Had the system not been broken to begin with, may never have had a need for initiatives like Yolo or MB.

Just to add the point of view of one of the other active cw clan, and speaking as just a member, we're also quite frustrated (to put it mildly) with the clan cap and matchmaking. Our clan is almost exclusively geared towards CW and finding enough people willing to put in the time is hard enough for us not to have any other prerequisite for joining.

From what i gather some of us play idle as well but I haven't seen anyone even discussing it in the clan's chat besides idle requests and if there weren't any idle rewards I don't think our cw activity would change one bit.

I'd bet that you could drop the rewards entirely and still see people playing.

You'd have probably the entirety of Prime drop out within a season. They actually are chiefly Idlers motivated by Idle rewards.

There's also the enjoyment of the games themselves. I've had enjoyable CW games on occasion, especially in clans with high CW ratings. Sometimes, in spite of the garbage-tier & highly exploitable matchmaking, I get fun games against semi-respectable opponents (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=32026969, https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=26508088).

The hope is that Fizzer will listen

The primary and secondary uses are almost directly as odds with one another. You need to cannibalize one for the other. Had the system not been broken to begin with, may never have had a need for initiatives like Yolo or MB.

+100. MB is a workaround players use to glean the value of CW without compromising the community value they get from being in a real clan.

We would not be in this position if a developer who has never meaningfully participated in or understood the value of clans at least bothered to listen to community feedback after reworking the clan system overnight.

Edited 9/20/2022 19:55:05

After reading the messages from recent days, I start to wonder, why are people from middle or top clans (other than NEETs/Prime, because obviously we are in CW for idle rewards) participate in CW:

• Glory? - probably, for "more clan-devoted" people - yes, this is a motivation. Probably, this is true too also for Clan leaders. But does it really matter for those who swap clans or put their alts in top clans for CW?
  
• Clan promotion to build community? - Maybe, but this leaves out the clans, who already hit the 40-ppl cap and actively rotate the roster in search for active CW players.
  
• Competition? - Everyone complains that the fun of it is far from desired.
  
• Rewards? - So many people say, that those dont matter for them and claim the same for the majority of the community.
  

Am I missing something?

Boredom and fulfillment? Never underestimate the power and obsession of people who find something to do, especially as part of a group.

Just think of it individually. Even if the competition itself has no meaning or benefit, doesn't it feel good to be someone consistent or amazing, someone others can rely upon? Being that clan member who logs in daily or wins some hard matches or trains clan mates to win more. You might not even think about the competition itself or what it means for your clan. You just have a goal and a role.

People find purpose in people.

people participate in clan war because they enjoy realtime warzone games, all there is to it. there are others who may do it for idle rewards, but the majority enjoy realtime games.

please do not play with multiple accounts in clan war and please do not help others with an ongoing game, the fact that this comes up shows how poorly the rules are explained and enforced. but I know you mean well Cicero :)

fizzer did not change the clan system overnight on a whim it was definitely a planned move to sell more clans. he's milking a diseased cow

"Rewards? - So many people say, that those dont matter for them and claim the same for the majority of the community."

People say that, and I am sure it doesn't matter much to those people but the rush of people into SEAD says the quiet majority see Clam Wars as something to get over and done with ASAP for the swag.

I count myself as a non silent part of that silent majority. Although I wonder if it's really worth the effort, double plus so being tethered to the computer at certain times, double double plus so when you show up to play and there is no SEAD or SE1W to play. I might not have much of a life, but it isn't zero

Morg'th, you were who I was thinking of when I was thinking about the social aspect of Clan Wars. Beyond just playing & improving at the games themselves, it seems to me you also get enjoyment out of telling us of your CW exploits, being someone your clanmates see playing every day, and generally being social around the competition.

I think ultimately the bulk of the value for the more committed players is social. It's about belonging to a group & adding to it in some small way.

"Morg'th, you were who I was thinking of when I was thinking about the social aspect of Clan Wars. Beyond just playing & improving at the games themselves, it seems to me you also get enjoyment out of telling us of your CW exploits, being someone your clanmates see playing every day, and generally being social around the competition.

I think ultimately the bulk of the value for the more committed players is social. It's about belonging to a group & adding to it in some small way. "

I enjoy contributing yes, and part of that for me at least is bringing cheer of good news, and sharing the bad. Encourage people to play more. Sure don't want to be a mooch. However the drive is from well for us, getting rank 3 to 5 and hopefully at least 15 territories

However if the rewards were gone, I wouldn't play another game of CW.
In considering on if to continue playing, I only take into account time vs rewards.
if the Clam I was in ever started dropping to 6th place, could no longer secure the 15th slot, I'd probably switch clams if one of the better ones would have me.
If Clam Wars were a requirement to get Clam requests filled, that I'd consider an indirect reward, so my point still stands.

im just giving my opinion tac(ky)tical.
I play it because is fun and just 1 time per day, as u said.

And it would be nice that not only 2 clans were fighting for the victory every season, as it is currently. And even if only 2 clans fight, at least would be better, in my opinion, that it would be in equal conditions. a lakers vs Celtics and not a Celtics vs All star team from the rest of other teams as it is right now.
Flexus complains about the system of the CW and I think that he has contributed to make it worse actually. thats how I see it, but you guys have all right to do what you are doing.

Edited 9/20/2022 22:00:48

I wouldn't say MB are an All-Star team. Clan-hopping & consolidation for CW has already happened.

It already happens at the individual player level. E.g., there's Santa Claus upgrading from MASTER to Prime over the course of a few seasons. There's Fausto jumping from KING to blue furries. There's Buddha hopping from Celtica to M'H. All were primarily motivated by CW. While you could say this isn't like an All-Star Team, it's basically the same (to borrow your NBA comparison) to when a bunch of superstars flocked to the Warriors, Lakers, Nets... all of which got compared to All-Star Teams for it.

There's also precedent at the more explicit, multi-clan level. M'Hunters, for example, moved players back and forth between Korea clan and M'Hunters (tris, Jacob?, sanmu) as a sort of CW partnership.

You could view MB as a Best vs. Rest style "all-star" team where the other clans are collaborating to field a shared team. But that's not really happening; instead it is individual players & organized groups of players moving to a new clan, the way CW incentivizes them to. They've just found a brilliant workaround, though, of using alts and only staying for seasons when they are active... which again is what CW+the 40 cap incentivizes them to.

And even with that workaround, it's still a soft collapse of clans. Even with alts, those players still spend time in a new community other than their main one (or, more often than not, move their mains to MB), so they still have to make that trade-off between community benefits & CW benefits.

Overall, I'd say the issue is with the incentive structures rather than how people rationally navigate them. Beyond that, I think your issue just reduces to an issue with players moving across clans. But that's just how clans work.

thank you kynte the admirable need admirers ;)

I am very happy we have such a nice group of players.
Its kind of sad we have to switch some and that we dont have the possibilties keep all around but it is what it is.

The thing i dont like is how clan wars works.

What would it take for Fizzer to change it?
Make clan wars interesting again?

It should be the prime competition in warlight but its failing.
Worst part is that he is thinking it is working.

Thats just sad.

In most games you wanna see who are the best. Cant Clan wars be about that at some point?
and also give idle rewards to less good players who just want rewards?

Also the need for activity as is today makes no sense.
I would like to seee team of 20 or 25 or 30.
With the need of 15-20-25 playing each day.
Or that its a weekly amount of games.

Maybe force each clan to play a certain amount of different templates.
Get rid of the #clan ranking matchmaking. Make it CW matchmaking?

Make it divisions? Make the different divisions vote for some maps during the season or in a off season?

I like that games are RT, but i dont get why the system for clan wars needs to be as bad as it is today.

Its possible to keep idle rewards and make the clan wars interesting for the best clans.
But Fizzer needs to make it a priority which sadly isnt a what he wants.

Edited 9/21/2022 01:42:28

I have three ideas regarding this, which are absolutely not shared with everybody else in the strategic community:

1) Rate by elo
2) Rate by elo
3) Rate by elo

Rumours say activity bonuses are still possible when you use a proper rating system :0

If we only had an example competition that already uses this approach and would show us how it works o_O

What would it take for Fizzer to change it?

It's hard to imagine him taking community feedback seriously unless, idk, some chance event happened where the community suddenly gained a lot of leverage, like- and I'm spitballing here- him needing community dollars to finance a get-rich-quick lawsuit. If something like that happens (extremely unlikely), the community could really take advantage of its position instead of blindly getting duped into emptying its wallets without even realizing for a second that it for a moment holds all the cards. On the other hand, there is a simp cult on the site that's easy to take advantage of, so I'm not so sure it would work out.

Why do people play CW? B/c it's something to rally around. We see in GC people frequently asking "what's the point of being in a clan?" Now the answer can simply be: CW. People in general rally behind a team. It can be a game of Charades, Euchre, a soccer team or a team WZ game/event, and regardless of the rewards, people play to win. They strategize, plan with teammates in order to win. None of the typical games of charades, Euchre, pick up soccer game or WZ team game have rewards, but people give their all to win. CL is the same, it's a vessel to rally around a common goal and trying to win as a team. But not everyone can play CL. It's not important that some consider it the highest form of competition WZ offers, b/c it's not available to all. CW offers a team competition to rally around that anyone can join in. You can join WZ today, find a clan and play in the next slot, and maybe even pull off a win and bring in some value to your team. But the key is that everyone is welcome. If you can find a clan with an open CW slot (we all know this isn't hard unless you're targeting one of the top teams), you can play.

What would it take for Fizzer to change it?

Tbh I think the answer is that the community would need to group together to not play CW for an entire season. The response to requests for change and community dissatisfaction is "it's working as designed, things are working well, CW playership is higher than it ever has been". Playing CW is essentially a sign that we like it as it is and each daily game played becomes a vote to keep it as it is and make no changes.

We'd really need to band together and have the player #'s drop significantly as a sign of unified dissatisfaction to show that things are in fact actually not working. It can't just be a 10% drop. 50%+ should send a significant message.

Well said Krinid and I think you might be onto something with the boycott. heck even if MH and MB dropped out completely for a season that would drop a big % of games and the next season wouldn't end till Christmas :[]
Plus it would give us all a great excuse to take a breather.
I'd be on board.
All optometrists in favour say Eye! All pirates in favour say Arr!
I'll show myself to the door now.

I vote EYE EYE EYE

Stats for the current point in the current season are as follows. This likely gets more 'top heavy' (participation from top 5 clans represents a higher %) b/c players tend to trail off as season progresses.

As it stands now, top 5 clans represent 58% of games played. So an MB, MH, Prime, Le Furie & Harmony boycott would be significant. In addition to # of games decreasing, the season length would be absolutely ridiculous, sending yet another message. Could end up being a 6 month+ season.

Alternatively, it might result in other clans in absence of these top 5 to actually play more often to reduce and thus reduce a boycott impact as an opportunity of vying for top spots instead of rank 6+. Top 10 clans is 77% of all games, and would add Excel, Fancy, TLA, Mothership & Polish Eagles into scope.

Total # games played: 1148

Clan / # games played / % of total games played:
Myth Busters 181 16%
M'Hunters 165 14%
Prime 116 10%
Le Furie Azzurre 105 9%
Harmony 99 9%
Excel 66 6%
The Fancy Dot ● 38 3%
The Last Alliance 47 4%
Mothership 37 3%
Polish Eagles 27 2%
PCMOlympia 26 2%
Alien Elite 29 3%
SPARTA 19 2%
Eagle Fang Dojo 22 2%
HAWKS 16 1%
ONE! 11 1%
[Blitz] 10 1%
Partisans 16 1%
Cats 13 1%
N,A,R New Age Rising 9 1%
Python 6 1%
Celtica 7 1%
Italia Caput Mundi 11 1%
Special Forces 10 1%
|GG| 6 1%
Varangian Guard 6 1%
Nestlings 9 1%
{101st} 11 1%
Battle Wolves 12 1%
Undisputed 10 1%
Flunky Fizzers 5 0%
MASTER Clan 3 0%

Edited 9/21/2022 05:34:47

We wouldn't want CW to end like the RTL where interest successively decreased, but the response was to replace it by a much less competitive system (QM) and kill it rather than improve it. The traditional step back where a step forward was anticipated. Fizzer always asked for concrete suggestions how to improve existing systems, we should want to focus on delivering the same.