It does crack me up though how Flexus uses "hole" when he means "whole".

Bwahahhaa

I prefer the clan roles idea. Allows for unlimited social members and allows for more organised clan wars.

Imagine ridiculing someone for asking for a fair playing field

Large uncapped clans have a disadvantage in CW since they can’t control who joins the roster. MB have more than 40 members. They have a pool of players that shuffle in and out of the clan every season, as well as a bunch of prospective bandwagoners that wish to join that pool.

MB can regulate who joins and who doesn’t, whereas Prime, Harmony, KC, TLA and so on can’t stop some curious, innocent noob seeing the flashing CW light at the start of a new season and signing up not knowing that they’ve committed to something they weren’t ready for.

MB were a clan of mercenaries who benefitted from their ability to regulate their roster and the allure of inclusivity. Now, as they have slowly turned their roster littered with alts into more of a community, they want more space so they can add the other 10-20 rotating players in the pool to their clan and create less organising work for their leaders.

Allowing MB to have more members will, counterintuitively, make MB weaker in CW and foster a stonger community, which is a result I’d be down for. Except I find it super ironic. They COULD just migrate to an uncapped clan like THD -> Harmony, NEETs -> Prime, Mothership -> KC, TBD -> 101st, Metal Gear -> After Dark.

But no. The clan created to kill M’Hunter’s 7 season win streak and breathe life back into CW is now on a 30 season win streak and CW is a desolate desert of despondent veterans, with the occasional oasis of wholesome hope within naive novices. Yet they have the audacity to appeal to Fizzer to change the game in their favour so they can maintain their legacy that was built from them using the clan cap to their advantage, rather than just change to an uncapped clan.

I think its important to not make the clan size about cw.

Clan size is about communitybuilding and participating in other type of events.
Its about staying in the same clan as friends (who actually dont want to play cw).

Its a fact that most new clans have moved and changed to old clans.
Thats, to me, is the proof that the current system doesnt work.
New clans either move or give up cause they see their community has no chance to succed.
What Fizzer thought was a good idea for clans is actually a bad idea since the old clans have this gigiantic advantage.
Its hurting the game and every new clan owner who wants to build something in warlight sees it.

Warlight is a pretty fair game but this unlimited vs 40 when you try to build a community is one of the most unfair things I have seen in a game. Community is such an important thing if we want to keep players around.

Its ironic Fizzer probably wanted to avoid MEGA clans when he made the cap (and possibly make some money) but instead he made it less interesting to create new clans since the new clans come with such a big disadvantage.

To give all clans same chance to have a same limit of players in the team is simply fair.

Edited 5/20/2024 10:28:20

Large uncapped clans have a disadvantage in CW since they can’t control who joins the roster.

Oh poor uncapped clans! Luckily for them, there are plenty of capped clans that wouldn't mind swapping!

They COULD just migrate to an uncapped clan like THD -> Harmony, NEETs -> Prime, Mothership -> KC, TBD -> 101st, Metal Gear -> After Dark.

The uncapped clans are quickly running out, especially any empty ones that still have the owner/clan leader active on WZ to even give it to them.

---

I understand people are worried about MB, because I too questioned Flexus motives.
However, MB is a special case, since its a clan of alts. They can always just swap their alts around to maximize their CW roster.
And if Flexus is trying to fix the clan cap to save MB the inconvenience of having to do an alt shuffle at the end of a season, so what?
Let's use this opportunity to see if we can get the clan cap improved in one way or another.
It's not like keeping MB (or any other clan filled with alts of Div A players) at 40 will stop them from winning every CW season....

MB is however, a great example of why adding things like clan achievements to increase the clan size only makes the existing feedback loop even worse.

Doesnt matter much how its fixed (to me).
Just as long as its made fair.

I think the idea of some advanced "clan work together to gain more seats" sounds like a good teambuilding experience.
What some people think is that CW alone would be criteria but it could be most points gained, ladderposition bonus or coins gained or games played in cw(not wins). Although this trying to gain as much points as a clan from given criteria could be fun but probably is way to advanced to actually make happen. Would mean different players could gain points depending on their given task though. Something different for sure.

Way easier to simply set a limit and let new clans gain/buy with coins while old start where they are today or at the max limit.

The worst solution is to simply make starting with new clan a bad choice which takes the fun out of the game and make people quit.
A game like warlight has to be fair to be interesting.

Edited 5/20/2024 10:40:28

The ideology is great! Make every clan uncapped! But Flex, you clearly have selfish motivations and are hiding behind a righteous motive. Flex, I’ll ask you, if this falls on deaf ears and you get nowhere with this initiative, are you going to stay in a capped “Myth Busters” or put your money where your mouth is, desert the legacy you’ve built and try to move to an uncapped clan?

For the sake of keeping all the discussion in 1 place:












(After this chat became a discussion about MD vs RT games, so I stopped screenshotting)





Edited 5/20/2024 12:22:07

I dont see any reason to move to other clan.
What other has been doing is exactly that:

1) Move to old clan
2) Stop building community

I mean thats all thats wrong with the current system.
Everyone understand its wrong. So why not fix it?

If you dont trust my word ask all the teams that did change or the ones that has not changed but every day dislike Fizzer and the game cause of the current situation.

your goal of being able to build a community - independent of any competition - seems to find full support of all other players

Thing is that it needs the support of Fizzer :)
Its a lot of things the players agree on but it doesnt mean Fizzer make it happen

From my perspective, the migration from Neets to prime was to achieve exactly what Flexus has in mind now.

Yes, it was also a CW-influenced decision. We wanted to continue to succeed in CW (NEET's had several top 5 rankings before) and we were seeing that it would cause some management effort to switch in/out players that want to take a break from CW. Being able to just let them take a break while still being in the clan seemed ... neet. But that wasnt the main reason!

Mostly we felt that it also would be bad for our community. People not participating in CW would have to leave the clan and thus would also not be able to get idle armies for their clan requests, have no access to the forum anymore or even getting general tips on their idle progress via clan chat would have been harder, etc.

Lets hope that fizzer supports us in building communities of more than 40 players, while still not having that 1 huge clan completely absorbing all players he seems to fear.

Proposals are a lot out there which, from what I see so far, have huge support in the player base:
• introduce an additional option to buy a new unlimited clan for money only
• introduce the possibility to increase the member cap for limited clans (e.g., for money only)
• and many other options out there

Edited 5/20/2024 11:34:09

Further thoughts......

Basic Clan - 45 Members (allows some flexibility in CW roster - this number may be different, but 40 seem wrong - I can expand on why)

Large Clan - 150 Members (this is apparently a non-arbitrary number)

Uncapped Clan - those with Grandfather rights only

otto makes a similar point to the one I have, but in a different space. Prime love Idle, Harmony loves friendly competition (so whatever points otto has about Idle are probably the same points I would raise about our HTL - I can explain what the HTL is if anyone wants to know). What Prime, Harmony, Cats and others have built has been the result of hard work by Managers. Some of us have c.400 Members. If any of our Members want to play CW, they have three options:

1. Be selected for the Harmony Squad;
2. Go elsewhere to play CW (either with an alt or the original account - doing so with an alt retains the benefits of being in Harmony); or
3. Join CW before other Harmony Members who were selected for the Squad (this is a genuine problem which is not currently easy to fix - it may be deliberately kept as a problem to punish larger Clans (?) ).

Point 3 is easily fixed by allowing some mechanism for the CW Roster to be decided in advance (DanWL has suggested 'Roles' - this would work and no doubt there are other easy fixes to this problem if there was interest from Fizzer)

---

I think that there is a misconception that there is a problem with large Clans hogging players who would otherwise join another Clan. All of our Members are free to leave and go elsewhere, but they choose not to. Only 40-50 of around 400 play CW/CL, so that leaves about 350 Members who want to be in Harmony without playing CW or CL.

What do they get out of it ?

- Training
- A sense of community
- Idle requests filled quickly
- HTL
- Harmony resources (training guides, etc.)
- Many other initiatives we have on-going or have planned
- Whatever other reasons Members have

I feel strongly that it would be a mistake, and a damaging one, to try to move away from 'Mega-Clans' - they offer something different which cannot be achieved with a capped Clan. Moreover, those who are not in the CW / CL Squad stay for a reason - making changes may remove the reason for them to be in a Clan at all - and maybe the reason to play WZ.

I do not think that this is simply a matter of all those players joining other Clans and having more Clans is better. What we seem to be contemplating is making it so that some of the great current WZ features cease to exist. Further, it will likely prevent other features developing in the future.

---

Tiered Clans may work (see my opening)

Having a mechanism to select the roster for CW seems a sensible idea (it exists for literally every other WZ competition)

Removing Mega-Clans would remove one of the main reasons for me being here and I suspect others may feel similarly.

Edited 5/20/2024 14:11:26

Roles wasn't my idea.

I completely disagree about having an absolute limit on players. All clans should have the ability to become unlimited. Imo would be better to upgrade from basic to unlimited. Could upgrade in increments like 50, 100, 200, 500, unlimited. Allows for expanding as needed.

Dan - I agree with you. My post was essentially trying to get a workable compromise. It seems like Fizzer doesn't like uncapped Clans, so I was trying to come up with something workable.

Right now there are no new uncapped Clans (afaik) and a seeming desire to move away from them. If we can get the small changes I suggested then it may allow time for Fizzer's perspective on this to change.

If it were up to me, there would be no caps (or at least an option for no cap). I think that the challenge right now for those of us who want uncapped Clans is to try to make Fizzer aware of the benefits of what we have and discourage him from removing something which is so good.

High activity mega clans and their consistent tendency to destabilize and create drama also offer invaluable entertainment to the community

WarTog have not opined about Clan Size debate, but now he have been pestered to do it.

All of these ideas about Clan Size are interesting. But they are ultimately irrelevant, because we are operating without one key piece of information....

WHY Fizzer did it this way in the first place?

The decision to cap new clans, (but leave old clans uncapped) is so completely nonsensical on its face, that it suggests that there is more to the story (from Fizzer's point of view) than we know. And until we know what is actually going on here, none of these suggests will gain any traction.


Specifically, a likely explanation is that Fizzer has a contractual obligation to the original Clan Owners. And he cannot simply change the terms of the original purchase agreement. If he is legally (or ethically) obligated to keep the older clans uncapped, then no amount of great ideas about clan size is going to change that. The last thing he wants to do is get sued by a gamer because he took their money and promised them an unlimited clan, and then changed his mind.

Another possibility is that the work involved in retro-fitting the older clans was simply not worth it for Fizzer, so he didn't bother to do it. If that is the case, then no amount of great ideas about MORE work he could do is going to persuade him. (My dad has an original TiVo that he purchased with a no-monthly-fee deal. It's been decades. But they can't take that away from him. He still pays no subscription fee.)


Fizzer's alleged disinterest in this issue is very telling, because I think we all see that this was obviously a mistake in terms of game mechanics. So if he refuses to fix an obvious flaw, there is clearly something else going on here.


You are all discussing this, from your perspective as players. But this is not a Player problem. It is a Fizzer problem. And until you figure out Why Fizzer did it this way in the first place. And what he got out of doing it that way. And what he gets out of keeping it this way. All of this discussion is simply moot.


From what I can glean from these many posts, the most viable solutions are ones that look at the problem in terms of Profitability for Fizzer. Whatever his original reasons, a proposal that appeals to Fizzer's needs (not yours) is most likely to succeed.


Your friendly neighborhood,

^oo^
WarTog

Edited 5/21/2024 18:58:50

Tactique sez:

Is it not unfair advantage when one clan gets no cap on members and other clans do[?].

Then, why is the completely dominant clan a Capped Clan?
If its so "unfair", why haven't the uncapped clans dethroned MB?

QED

Another one exposed.

Edited 5/24/2024 20:37:43