"no limit on makeups" make no sense.
If a player gets booted on picks in a replacement game (1), you would have to create a replacement game (2) for the replacement game (1), player gets booted (2) create a game (3), etc.

As FC and Lynx clearly not agree on makeups this will be a likely scenario and CL 7 won't be finished nowhere soon.

As FC and Lynx clearly not agree on makeups this will be a likely scenario and CL 7 won't be finished nowhere soon.

Completely false statement. FC and Lynx have already agreed between ourselves on makeups. So there is no issue there.

And Quicksand is stalling the clan league; all of Lynx's makeup games have already been made, and we will wait for other clans to accept. Most are going on right now. In the regular tournament, we have not yet gotten a game vs Blitz because Quicksand has been on vacation so long. So Lynx's makeup games won't extend the clan league this season.

I withdraw my "statement".
But it's a scenario that could happen with this rule, which I don't like.

Also this replacement game is not according to stated rules:
- A 3v3 between Blitz and Lynx has been made. Waiting on Quicksand to join. We expect Darkpie to be booted on picks in the real game, so we made this makeup early, so we don't have to make it up later. We replaced with Arkanton. Result will be shown later.

Reffering to,
"makeups are only allowed if a boot happens on pick stage",
since noone got booted. We all hope Darpie returns.

Is it clear Quicksand is stalling, or is he on vacation? What is the rule on this?

Quicksand is holding it up big time (but he's on vacation, so what can we do?). We have waited 25 days for him to make picks in a 3v3 game.

I don't understand where the confusion comes in here on MUST vs ALLOWED.

Let's go through the scenario. Player 1 on Team A gets booted on picks. Team B must allow for a replacement game if Team A requests it. If Team A never asks, and Team B never offers, then how could it possibly be made up? Are you suggesting that the score keeper checks every game to see if every game was decided by boots (personally, I would just check the W-L listed) and when the boot occurred? That would be the only way you could FORCE a makeup that wasn't requested by any players. And what if Team A does not care about the loss (maybe they are destined to relegate already, so why bother)? Do you FORCE them to make it up anyway? Why?

Team B MUST play the makeup game (if requested) or take a loss. But if never requested they are not required to offer it.

So for me to say makeups MUST happen is just plain stupid. There are obviously scenarios where they would not be made up ever.

"Makeup games MUST be with the same players." Yet, "[replacement players for inactive players] also cannot be denied." No wonder there is confusion.

Well, those are two different scenarios, but they CAN happen in the same game. A makeup game is due to a boot on picks, period. A replacement player is due to someone being inactive. They assume responsibility for ALL games yet to complete in that tournament. IF there happens to be an ongoing game past pick stage, and they don't have access to that account, the person will be booted and no makeup game will happen because it was post boot.


As far as the limit, I think there should be one. But only a couple people said that. I will get everyone in the panel to vote on that, because that is ripe for abuse if you make no limit. I was simply stating what EVERYONE agreed to already, things that should not be debated.

How about this scenario: De Gaulle was booted on picks in our 3v3 game. If I ask Lynx for a makeup game (with de Gaulle playing) and they say no, what happens? Or, how about this scenario: Lynx's inactive player was in four tournaments. If Lynx asks to remake every single game in those four tournaments, and every single clan says no, then what?

"no limit on makeups": Ok. How about this scenario: A day before Season 7 is about to end, Lynx decides they want to makeup all of their games in which their inactive player was booted on picks. Is there really no limit?

Scenario 1a above: If Lynx denies the makeup (from De Gaulle booted on picks) with current players, French gets win.

Scenario 1b above: Assuming boots were in pick stage, if every single clan says no they get a loss. As I said, I will ask for an immediate vote on a limit, because I think not having a limit is silly.

Scenario 2 above: We have no rule on when it needs to be requested, therefor I cannot answer that. It is something we need to decide on. IMO, it needs to be within a turn of the boot happening (so 3 days). Otherwise you can have a clan get booted, play the entire game out, then ask for a make up. That is a complete waste of everyone's time and allows for the booted team to 'scout' the other team.

Edited 1/27/2016 21:02:23

Please Chris, don't eat my brain !

Just tell me yes or no :

Do we must play the remake if the other clan ask for it ? (With or not a change player)

I andestand that we can refused, but some FC player and JSA also don't anderstand like me.

Edited 1/27/2016 21:10:40

It appears so, and this is complete bullshit. You don't decide on rules when the season is almost over, this is nonesense, high council or not. Most rank for the season are already set, making up games where the stakes are different depending on the clan make the makeup games completely rigged. What were you thinking? I just hope that i completely misread the whole thing, because it doesn't make sense to me

We didn't make them up at end. This was discussed in November. But it appears that some leaders went ahead with makeups without ever asking the rule on it. Or they asked the wrong person, because nobody asked me except someone from Illuminati and GG.

And then Gui asked later as well when the crap already hit the fan.

Edited 1/27/2016 21:23:07

"And what if Team A does not care about the loss (maybe they are destined to relegate already, so why bother)?"
This is a problem in competetive perspective IMO. Therefor it needs to be decided. 3 days (as you described) would be fair, if it is possible to inform clan leaders and get it granted in that time.

We didn't make them up at end. This was discussed in November

Don't you think this thread would have been a good place to publish that? There is no way FC will play those forced rematch at the last minute. This is insane.

From this

Ollie - Allow for a clan to makeup/replace 3 games from boots on picks only. If a player retires, someone else can control their account if they do not violate any other rules (like format amount, etc).

Pushover - In favor of no replacement games. Retirements replacements allowed if does not violate other rules and public known.

Lolowut- Makeups can be offered by non-boot team at any stage if they want, but not required. replacements allowed for inactive player if game not past boot stage.

ChrisCMU - replacement players allowed as long as declared and does not violate other rules.

Phaeril - Replacement players for retirement IF that player was already on the CL team (to avoid FAs). Fine with Ollie proposal on makeup games but prefer none unless both teams booted on picks.

...SO, the rulings for THIS SEASON were:
-makeups are only allowed if a boot happens on pick stage. All agreed they should not be required post pick stage, regardless of scenario.
-no limit on makeups as we did not agree there.
-a player who retires/goes inactive can be replaced with another participant in that clan's team, provided they do not go over 4 formats. It must be declared/known to score keeper and both clans who is playing.

to this

But, it is required to ALLOW a makeup game from boot on picks. Meaning, it cannot be denied by another clan leader

I fail to see the connection, did the voters even made that connection?


edit: This season could have been somewhat decent if what had been done was what people said from the beginning, meaning as long as both teams agrees on remake,since there is no official rule, they can do whatever. But now deciding at the end of the season on controversial rules...it is as if you tried hard to flush this season down the toilets

Edited 1/27/2016 21:46:47

"There is no way FC will play those forced rematch at the last minute. This is insane."

What does that even mean? I asked for everyone to post what games would be subject to a makeup. What games would you need to make up?

Are you talking about games where Darkpie never played (booted on picks)? If so, then the game should have been remade right then and played. There shouldn't be a ton of games in limbo now.

I wish it would have been communicated to me that Lynx was trying to replace him and other clans said no you cannot.

I guess at this point we can't go by any rule since people made up their own, and ours were not posted. Just do what you think is best and roll with it. I did not think it would be a big deal like this, it never has been in the past. People just live with the boots usually.

Edited 1/27/2016 23:21:20

Are you talking about games where Darkpie never played (booted on picks)? If so, then the game should have been remade right then and played. There shouldn't be a ton of games in limbo now.

I asked about the rules 2 months ago on boots. No one in the clan league committee gave a clear answer until a couple weeks ago, when Lolowut said that it is up to the clans whether or not to accept rematches. I kept waiting for an official ruling, and none was ever given. I think the issue here is that people would have liked you to give your official ruling right away, rather than waiting 2 months. And with the games being in limbo, we are currently making them up, so I still expect us to be done before Quicksand is, meaning Darkpie's boots won't hold up the clan league or anything.

I wish it would have been communicated to me that Lynx was trying to replace him and other clans said no you cannot.
I think this has been posted on the thread as soon as it happened. There hasn't been much private messaging going on, at least not with us. We did discuss with FC privately, because both clans knew it'd be better to do it privately than getting into a huge debate on the forum (which has happened anyways, but could have gotten much nastier).


So the rules seem pretty clear now. The clan that won a game by boot on picks MUST give the other team a chance to make the game up. I was confused on them earlier, just as many of the FC was.

For the FC members, I will discuss with Phaeril about Darkpie games being made up against FC, and Charles' game being made up against Lynx. I'm sure if two clans agree to no makeup games, the ruling becomes a nonissue.

Games where players were booted off picks (first player was booted):

Strategic 1v1 0% WR:
Lobstrosity vs Grosshardlen (AHOL vs Blitz)

Battle Islands 1v1:
wakanari vs Ollie (Blitz vs GG)
Ollie vs Lobstrosity (GG vs AHOL)
Lobstrosity vs wakanari (AHOL vs Blitz)
Falker vs Widzisz (WG vs Apex)
Phaeril vs wakanari (FC vs Blitz)

Greece 1v1:
NONE

Guiroma 1v1:
NONE

Strategic 1v1 0% SR:
Darkpie vs Braak (Lynx vs GG)
Darkpie vs Pooh (Lynx vs AHOL)

Turkey 1v1:
Darkpie vs General Charles (Lynx vs FC)
Darkpie vs Lawm (Lynx vs AHOL)
wakanari vs Latnox (Blitz vs GG)
wakanari vs General Charles (Blitz vs FC)

Total 1v1 boots (on picks):
Lynx: 4
Blitz: 3
AHOL: 2
FC: 1
GG: 1
WG: 1

Total makeup games for each clan on 1v1:
Blitz: 3
AHOL: 3
GG: 3
FC: 2
Apex: 1

Potential point differential (currently based off of solely the tournaments):
Lynx: 0 to +12
Blitz: -9 to +9
AHOL: -9 to +6
FC: -6 to +3
GG: -9 to +3
WG: 0 to +3
Apex: -3 to 0

I asked about the rules 2 months ago on boots. No one in the clan league committee gave a clear answer until a couple weeks ago, when Lolowut said that it is up to the clans whether or not to accept rematches. I kept waiting for an official ruling, and none was ever given. I think the issue here is that people would have liked you to give your official ruling right away, rather than waiting 2 months. And with the games being in limbo, we are currently making them up, so I still expect us to be done before Quicksand is, meaning Darkpie's boots won't hold up the clan league or anything.

Well, I did not see any mail, PM from you about Darkpie. I just checked my mail threads again and all I see is a discussion over re-formatting the clan league.

Just re-read this thread. In here it says we are working on an official rule for next time but any games that are in pick stage boots can be made up if both teams agree.

I think there was confusion in the panel if we were handling these boots, or possible future boots in CL8. Clearly we were not on the same page. So in CL7, it is up to the clans as not all were clear.

Unfortunately this happened at the worst possible time for most (Christmas and New Years). I was on vary sparingly then myself.

Edited 1/28/2016 00:58:20

Team Game Boots off picks:

2v2 Strategic:
Lynx vs AHOL (Darkpie)
Lynx vs GG (Darkpie)
Lynx vs FC (Darkpie)
AHOL vs Blitz (Lobstrosity)
AHOL vs FC (Lobstrosity)

2v2 Guiroma:
AHOL vs WG (MilitaryManiac)
AHOL vs FC (MilitaryManiac)

2v2 Szeurope:
AHOL vs FC (MilitaryManiac)
AHOL vs GG (MilitaryManiac)
AHOL vs Lynx (MilitaryManiac)
Apex vs FC (Timinator)

3v3 EU 0% SR:
AHOL vs WG (Ace Windu)
Lynx vs Apex (Darkpie, already made up in game)
Lynx vs AHOL (Double: Darkpie + Ace Windu, Ace Windu took back control over AI turn 1; Darkpie didn't come back)

3v3 EU 0% WR:
FC vs Lynx (General Charles)
AHOL vs GG (Double: MilitaryManiac + Braak, Braak took back control over AI turn 1; Military didn't come back)
AHOL vs Blitz (MilitaryManiac)
AHOL vs FC (MilitaryManiac)
AHOL vs Lynx (MilitaryManiac)
GG vs FC (Muten Roshi)

Total number of team games in which each team was booted on picks:
AHOL: 12 (53)
Lynx: 5 (22)
FC: 1 (5)
GG: 1 (5)
Apex: 1 (4)

Total number of team games in which each team received a boot win:
FC: 7 (30)
Lynx: 3 (14)
GG: 3 (13)
Blitz: 2 (9)
AHOL: 2 (9)
WG: 2 (9)
Apex: 1 (5)

Total number of all games in which each team lost by boot on picks (points in parenthesis):
AHOL: 14 (59)
Lynx: 9 (34)
Blitz: 3 (9)
FC: 2 (8)
GG: 2 (8)
Apex: 1 (4)
WG: 1 (3)

Total number of all games in which each team received a free boot win:
FC: 9 (36)
GG: 6 (24)
AHOL: 5 (18)
Blitz: 5 (18)
Lynx: 3 (14)
WG: 2 (9)
Apex: 2 (8)

So if we make up our 14 games on picks and win some,there's a chance Ahol makes it another season?

To Summarize:

The language went from UNKNOWN (nobody knew the official policy) to CAN/ALLOWED (makeup games are optional) to MUST (they are required) to REALLY MUST (if you deny a makeup game, you lose the game you already won on a boot) to EACH CLAN DOES WHATEVER IT WANTS (what was already happening due to lack of clarity).

Official Makeup Game Policy:

Each CL representative decides what his clan will do with respect to makeup games. No points are lost for denying a makeup game.

Official Makeup Game Process:

Makeup games have to be declared to THE CLANS (CL representative). That is, the CL representatives have to arrange the makeup games among themselves or at least be aware of the makeup games. No surprise makeup games.

Is this right? To reduce conflict, rules should be clear, consistent, fair, and known to all.

Edited 1/28/2016 05:09:05

Lawm, I'd assume you'd have to win quite a few out of those 14. But if the points add up to where you could get top 5, then I'd assume yes, you could potentially stay in Group A. The rules still aren't very clear though. Looks like you could potentially add 59 points. Meaning, yes it would be possible for AHOL to stay in A, although still highly unlikely. Lynx is very likely to stay in Group A with the makeup games, but not guaranteed yet. French would have the most to lose if makeup games are required.

From what I understand, Chris first said makeup games MUST be made up. Now he is saying that they can only be made up if both teams agree. Maybe he was talking about for the future (like Season 8) when he said MUST? Could you clarify on this Chris? Are clans required to makeup games THIS SEASON? Or is it up for the clans(like Gui says, the Clan Reps) to decide?

"Don't eat my brain!"

Edited 1/28/2016 12:36:01

I can answer #5 a bit. From what I understand, boots have been made up in the past only when the "winning" clan asked the losing clan if they'd like to make it up. This season was different, when right from the start, GG asked another clan to make up a game in which a GG player was booted. Whether they were the first to do it or not, I'm not sure. But from this, many clans asked for make up games. FC asked Lynx for one in our 3v3. From what I remember (correct me if I am wrong), they asked us for a makeup game before we asked for any makeup games. Lynx asked for Darkpie's games to be made up to various clans. So this season is different in the fact that the losing clan asked for replacement games, rather than the winning clan giving the option. Perhaps another issue is that there is yet to be a clan that would be relegated when they clearly played at a high enough level whether they should not have to worry about relegation (in Group A at least). In this season, if Darkpie had not gone inactive, Lynx was almost certain to be in 3rd-4th. Both of these issues made an impact I think.

4. I agree on. This is why I would have no problem with makeup games not counting. I just believe it needs to be consistent across the board. Either all games are made up where player was booted on picks, or none are. Leaving it up to the clans punishes the nice ones.

1. I agree on, but with the rules not being clear, this was not a very good option at the time. I had not desire to play makeup games that may not even count.

3. I think this is up to the committee and AHOL to decide. It's very unlikely AHOL will stay in Group A anyways, even with all games being made up. Do they want to play 14 more games when it likely won't make a difference?

Sorry about the points being out of order.

Edited 1/28/2016 05:42:04