And Colonel, Uservoice about one player is useless, as it has nothing to do about improving Warlight as a whole, if you want to complain about him, mail Fizzer directly.

After all Knyte, you were also part of the people whom I gave MR, and you did a good job

Yeah. Just like not everyone Obama's given weapons to ended up joining ISIS.

Even bad policies have non-zero success rates. I still maintain that you had no good reason to trust me at the time you gave me Manager Rights.

Semice's action is going to tarnish Wolves reputation even more than before sadly.

If we lose respect from you and Colonel over keeping someone who hasn't even been confirmed as hijacking RE, that's even less consequential than your concerns about Loli and Kapy.

I will not remove Semice from TLW. And like any other member of TLW, he can expect clan management to stick by him when he needs us. Like any good clan, we defend our members instead of turning on them under external pressure.

Edited 5/18/2016 23:19:55

Let me count the amount of people who had MR right before CORP was first hijacked.

Kazuki, Achilles, Death, Panda, knyte, Des, Tjoex, Hazard, The Lone Wolf, Elroi, Loli.

yeah basically 10. Now tell me that's closer to 6 kek xD

I'm getting drunk off 99% proof from my still and going pigggin' MMMMMM

Kazuki, Achilles, Death, Panda, knyte, Des, Tjoex, Hazard, The Lone Wolf, Elroi, Loli.

but it's okay that's all validated because he gave me MR (even though I only asked for him to invite someone and actually didn't do anything with MR until after the hijack)

Panda/Koala's a great player and obviously contributes to the clan. But his leadership policy had been misguided and ineffective at best.

Edited 5/18/2016 23:29:16

While all man are opportunistic, people you respect and trust and have known are far less likely than most to betray if you give them MR. Not everybody abuses MR or is out to get you, you just have to be thoughtful/mindful.

rates. I still maintain that you had no good reason to trust me at the time you gave me Manager Rights.

And Kazuki had no good reason to trust me at the time he gave me Manager Rights, right? But still none of us had the stupid idea to hijack our clan, and destroy a whole community of people just because "it is so funny" whereas they asked nothing at all.
If Kazuki did not trust me then CORP would have stayed certainly a one member clan, and without you CORP would have not become a successful strategic clan. If we start not trusting anyone then nothing would happen at all.

I am not usually defending Colonel here, but he was quite clear here when he said he did not gave MR that quickly, as it took 4 months as he pointed out. You are a bit too harsh with Colonel, whereas it is like Semice had almost no responsibilities and no faulty behavior at all.

:P If people are that easily able to gain and abuse your trust, maybe you shouldn't be so ready to trust just about everyone for the most tenuous reasons.

@Panda: You had no reason to even take that for granted with me. You also did not benefit in any way for giving me MR, and had no reason to believe you would. If you're willing to spread MR out like that and are now blaming everyone but yourself, I think that perfectly explains the hijack.

I'm not saying you don't trust anyone. Instead, you can acknowledge the reality that MR = full control and ownership.

At any given time, just have MR in the hands of the smallest set of people that are able to effectively handle day-to-day operations- usually 1 person. If that set is going inactive, replace them.

Never hand out MR to anyone that doesn't absolutely need them. Even with "trust," you're setting the bar far too low for a tool that lets someone just destroy the clan.

I mean, I trust most of my friends. Heck, I don't expect them to harm me if I gave them my credit card number, my license, and anything else they would need to steal my identity. That doesn't mean I just hand this stuff to them and then claim I wasn't at fault when things go wrong. There's no need for them to have my credit card, and a really strict standard needs to be applied to the purported benefits of giving them such power.

For some reason, most RP clan leaders just don't grasp that.

Edited 5/18/2016 23:35:03

Kazuki, Achilles, Death, Panda, knyte, Des, Tjoex, Hazard, The Lone Wolf, Elroi, Loli.

Achilles, Kazuki, Hazard and Death were going inactives.

Elroi was removed before that happened I think (needs to be confirmed) and Loli did not have manager rights, although he asked for them many times.

So yes there were only 6 or even less effective managers in that time.


And Knyte, you can criticize me, but during my management (counting also After Dark), only one hijacking happened, and it was during a very particular moment when I needed more people helping me to run this growing clan, it would have never happened in a normal situation, whereas under yours or Ox's 2 hijackings occurred and I wasn't even there at all, so clean your own backyard before starting criticizing others.


But lets stop derail this, explain me again why you minimize Semice's action here? Ok he took advantage of our "poor leadership" but tell me how his action (and supposedly Cacao for Bakkah and Grand Armée but I still need a proof about it Zeph) is not wrong here? It does a great harm to a community that never asked for this, and I do not see how this could be defended or minimized as you tend to do here just because you are currently working for his clan the Wolves... Try to be more objective Knyte.

I have a better idea LET"S KILL HI- on second thought maybe your idea's alright.


Let's ban him.

whereas under yours or Ox's 2 hijackings occurred and I wasn't even there at all

Under mine? There was only Achilles. In any case, I had no control over who had MR- that fell entirely to Kazuki. That's exactly why I left CORP to run Optimum and now TLW- here my leadership is not compromised by people who have much more power than they should.

explain me again why you minimize Semice's action here?

I don't- he's obviously being a dick and taking advantage of the 11-year-olds who throw away their parents' money on RP clans here. I'm just tired of the RP clan managers blaming their failures on everything but their poor leadership and willfully failing to understand what a transfer of Manager Rights is.

His actions aren't in the right, but he should not be banned for them because ultimately someone else decided that he was fit to control a clan. It's not even some sort of malicious action- he just misled them about what he would do with MR, but that doesn't mean it's not their responsibility to be skeptical of anyone that asks for MR.

Ultimately, this is just this big perpetual failure in the RP leadership community that is literally the easiest thing to avoid. And you don't move forward by blaming the people you gave MR to. The way I see it, once you transfer MR to someone, you're completely fine with anything they do with MR- and they're completely free to use MR any way they want to, unless you place some explicit, binding, and enforceable conditions.

It doesn't make sense to ban Semice for using MR the way he wanted to. Colonel decided to give him MR knowing full well what the transfer entailed, and now he can't just whine about it because Semice used them in a way Colonel didn't want him to. A "hijack" is just a stupid word for a transfer of power gone wrong.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:27:59

OOOooh, i think vitriol thinks he's superior. How cute.

No, I'm just opposing a groundless and irresponsible ban against a member of The Lost Wolves.

"A "hijack" is just a stupid word for a transfer of power gone wrong."

Actually, i find it fairly accurate.

The way i see it the only one who is at fault is semice. Stupidity is no excuse to curb the blame away from the guy who did the damage.

Yeah it was pretty stupid to give him power. But do you really expect such things not to happen? It happens with smart owners, and to dangerously trustworthy owners.

"No, I'm just opposing a groundless and irresponsible ban against a member of The Lost Wolves."

So you don't want to ban him because he's a member of your clan? -_-


Groundless? No. Irresponsible? No

What was groundless and irresponsible was giving him ownership.

That does not mean however that his actions do not warrant a ban against him.

Colonel transferred MR to Semice. In doing so- after having read those warnings, he gave Semice license to do whatever he wanted to do with MR. At no point did Colonel even go for an informal agreement about what Semice could do with MR. He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially.

Warlight very, very explicitly outlines that Colonel knowingly and willingly consented for Semice to do everything he did- he gave Semice the power to add/remove managers, add/remove members, change the clan page, etc.- this was even highlighted by the "Manage or remove players" module twice in a sentence that specifically begins with "WARNING:"

And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to.

Was Semice abusive? Sure. Were Semice's actions at least morally questionable? Of course.

But should Semice be punished for this by Fizzer? Nope. Warlight ban policy should be based on concrete rules, not vague notions of moral behavior. Colonel has no grounds here to pursue a ban.

So you don't want to ban him because he's a member of your clan? -_-

No. But I'm in charge of The Lost Wolves, and personally I think it's a responsibility of clan management to always side with your members when they need you to. But those aren't the grounds for my argument here, and really my motives have no bearing on whether or not my claims are true.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:45:47

"He made Semice a full owner of his clan, essentially."

Power does not make you an owner.


"And now he's complaining because Semice used MR in a way that was perfectly within the bounds of what Colonel had agreed to."


I'm uncertain as to what colonel agreed to exactly, but it's clear that the only thing he intended was an extra mod. This is a moral debate dude, not a legal one.

"But should Semice be punished for this by Fizzer? Nope. Warlight ban policy should be based on concrete rules, not vague notions of moral behavior. Colonel has no grounds here to pursue a ban."

Semice destroyed a clan and essentially stole it. This is purely unacceptable behavior in a community whether you like it or not. Can i be abusive on the forums? Nope, you know why? Because it upsets people and the community. You just cannot have people doing whatever they like and ruining warlight for other people.

You know guys, If you think a person has violated Warlight policy, you should report that said person. I think a thread devoted to whether or not we should ban someone is just blows the issue out of proportion. If the player has not violated any sort of policy, then there is no point in trying to get the person banned.

Edited 5/19/2016 00:53:28

Power does not make you an owner.

According to Warlight:

Clan managers can do anything you can do - they can add/remove players, set titles, add/remove managers, etc.

WARNING: Be sure to only set players as a manager if you trust them 100%. Since they can do anything, they could even remove you from the clan if they wanted to take control.

Under these terms, Colonel knowingly transferred to Semice the power to:

- "do anything" Colonel could do

- "add/remove players"

- "set titles"

- "add/remove managers," including Colonel himself

- "do anything"

- "even remove you [Colonel] from the clan if they wanted to take control"

Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Colonel didn't know what he was doing. Colonel knew exactly what he was doing. He was undertaking a systematic effort to transfer a set of significant privileges to Semice and let Semice do whatever he wanted with it.

And Semice chose to exercise these privileges- just not in a way that Colonel liked.

Colonel has no recourse here. This wasn't theft. Colonel's straight-up just trying to get Semice banned because of his own poor decision-making.

The moment you give Manager Rights to someone- unless you're placing them under some sort of binding contractual obligation- you're consenting to anything they could do with Manager Rights. It's spelled out right in the "Clan Managers" submodule, right where you go to transfer Manager Rights.

If the player has not violated any sort of policy, then there is no point in trying to get the person banned.

Exactly. Warlight bans are based on Warlight policy, not what Colonel or some random MSF member thinks is "moral."

Edited 5/19/2016 02:24:48

Analogous situation: Yesterday, I let Colonel join The Lost Wolves, knowingly giving him the ability to post (non-removable) posts in our Clan Forum. He's made at least two forum posts that I don't like and think are abusive, misleading, inflammatory, and immoral.

But he just simply exercised privileges that I gave him. Not in violation of Warlight policy in any way.

And if I thought it was, there's a "Report" button I could hit and fill with all relevant information, screenshots, and links.

Making a Uservoice to get someone banned and openly acknowledging that you're appealing to your notion of morality rather than to concretely-defined Warlight policy is just one way of saying you're not responsible and should not be in any leadership position until you learn to accept the consequences for your own decisions.