I don't consider sitting a team mate's account cheating. As far as I'm aware of, the rule says "alts must be declared because no one may play for two clans at once". I am not aware of a rule that keeps people from using alts in the same team - though that might collide with the minimum player's rule of course (but in this case didn't as M'Hunters had enough players).

Of course, I am no cl rules expert, so feel free to point me to the place where a rule states otherwise. And please point me to a place where the rules are readable for everyone. People talking it through in private chat is fine, but you can't really hold anyone responsible for breaking a rule that is not openly communicated.

And apart from the rule thing, I don't really see how sitting a team mate's account changes anything. You could also just tell your team mate what to do if your play is better than his. You could set vacation mode if you're away. Or you could even have someone else who doesn't play in cl sit your account. The outcome would be exactly the same - good moves and no one booted.

I appreciate you planning on not taking the drama train again. But I think it would be preferable to really talk this through without just jumping at one another's throats.
My feeling is that this drama was made were there actually was none - due to some old resentiments (which I totally understand, but even some of them could be solved by talking without attacking).

Wisely said, both of you.

What do you say, knyte? I challenge you to a duel! To the Death!

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

Purely in the interest of information, the rule does appear to have existed in the past and I find no records of it being changed:

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/159812-clan-league-8-division-c-official-thread?Offset=604

due to some old resentiments

I freely admit that I was part of the people that made some speculations of intent, but now that I've thought about it, I think that side of the conversation gets us nowhere. We have no way to gauge intent- all we can do is observe actions and their consequences. Conversations like "Norman is trying to harass knyte and that's why he's logging into his alt and making knyte's side of the issue sound like a bunch of people protesting at a vegan convention," "Nikolai is lying through his teeth about NIGHT and claiming it was weeks when it was at most a couple of days just because he wants to be a dick," "MotD doesn't care at all and that's why he has yet to respond to the Emu Pub/LTEmperor issue after 11 days," and "knyte has a personal vendetta against M'Hunters and that's why he keeps underrating M'H in Clan League, bringing up all these issues, and trying to get people to take all these absurdly extreme actions against them" aren't going to get us anywhere because there's no way to peek into other people's minds.

I know it's a popular theory that I'm just doing this out of some vendetta against M'Hunters, a theory that seems to have missed the multiple times I've made an effort to make it clear that M'Hunters are on balance a great clan with major contributions and great members. Really, it seems to me that people have been simplifying this to "knyte thinks all M'Hunters are evil" when I've made it clear that I don't- not at all- multiple times. And I think simplifying the conversation to "resentments" does us all a disservice because it again shifts to something we can't talk about instead of things we can talk about, things we can deal with. It forces people to take unreasonable sides- right now, it looks like you're forced to be either pro-knyte/anti-M'H, pro-M'H/anti-knyte, or just calling this whole conversation silly. It's that false trichothomy that I think has really hampered us and cause most of the sane people in this thread to just think this is a stupid conversation that would only waste time- because the other two choices are just idiotic.

Similarly, there's also assumptions people are making about Norman, MotD, and others- assumptions that are impossible to verify at best. We have no idea what anyone's agenda is- and while that doesn't mean taking their word for it, it does mean recognizing that the silly option here would be to debate agendas instead of facts.

I can tell you from my end it's not resentment. I think that certain things need to change about this community, about Clan League, and about how clans operate (that's been a transparently-held view of mine for a long, long time). I have no intent to end M'Hunters or to cause them to disband as a clan or to make them weaker players or teams than they currently are; I don't resent how great they are at Clan League, although they've certainly made me eat my words about VS crushing them :P And I think there's a problem when people jump to assuming I'm motivated by, calling me a "keyboard warrior," turning the conversation to a discussion about me personally, etc., that instead of really engaging with the substance (which, if my claims here are baseless, should be a much simpler, much easier conversation. The people that currently refuse to even look at http://bit.ly/mh-cheating and automatically assume there's nothing valuable in there because they think I'm out to get M'Hunters... well, for them, I guess all I'm going to say is that I wasn't the one who found the issue or the one who first brought it to attention. I was simply asked by them to bring it up for them because they felt they'd either get no response or just backlash. I only agreed because: a) I'm the kind of person who will leak information, even breaching confidentiality, if I think the community has a right to know, and b) it's not like I had a great reputation to protect.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:07:26

Knyte I'd like to give you some advice. Now I should point out this is a personal opinion and you may not agree with everything/anything I say, and that's fine.

We are all individuals and all different, with unique sets of strengths and weaknesses. The word troll is hugely overused, but I remember a time when a troll was someone who would subtly press someones buttons, find their weakness, and then sit back and enjoy the show when they explode.

Your weaknesses are that you tend to need to have the last word, you like to always be right, and you struggle to let things go. Those are hardly rare or uncommon and most of us have them to some extent or another, you probably more than most.

Unfortunately for you, when there have been times when you have let your weaknesses get the better of you, and you've tried to fix something, you've had strong support from friends who know how you are so often right, and back you despite the fact that you are allowing your weaknesses come to the forefront. In fact their support can make it seem like those weaknesses are in fact strengths.

Now for a troll, the old school type, that makes you about as juicy a target as it is possible to be. All they have to do is to create some situations where they know your inability to let things go, your need to be right and have the last word, result in you getting into disputes where more impartial people will see you as in the wrong, as overreacting, and of not being even headed.

Your friends all support you and tell you that you are right, and over time your position becomes more and more extreme; until we reach the point where we are now, and things explode. The troll is laughing his ass off, and the innocent people who have done nothing wrong and who have a very different perspective on things are being unfairly bombarded with posts.

So my advice to you. Stop feeding the troll. Move away from the keyboard, and post nothing at all. Draw a line under this entire episode and learn to be a bit more flexible and try and make yourself a little less vulnerable to this type of goading.

Please do not respond to me. Do not respond to anyone. Just walk away. Just move on. Your friends will still be your friends, and others may well respect you a lot more for it. And if you can't walk away from these forums for a few days or even a week, perhaps you need to ask yourself, do you have a problem?

^
Ritardando

http://bit.ly/mh-cheating

---

I appreciate the concern, but let's keep this thread from getting more personal. This isn't about my personal life. I think we'd get a lot more done if people redirect the personal concerns and whatnot to PMs or (better yet) stop making assumptions about the intentions and behavior patterns of people they haven't interacted with recently and/or literally didn't know existed 2-3 days ago. :)

I go through periods of high activity and of near-inactivity on this site. All of this is very much under my control- ask the people who competed in IPL whether they think I'm unable to just drop this site on a whim :P. Although, if you think there's a serious issue with me, I'll print out your forum post and show it to my doctor next time I visit him.

Edited 7/23/2016 10:07:35

Until now, no one could verify there was a rule broken that has been known to the accused beforehand.

Kroete, as Aristotle put it "ignorantia iuris nocet". Also even if the accused did not know the rule they had broken, Ignorantia juris non excusat. Now I am not saying the accused broke any rule, but defending someone by saying "no one could verify there was a rule broken that has been known to the accused beforehand' only allows people to break the rules and claim ignorance which is purely unacceptable whether it is true or not.

Respectfully submitted,

[RE] Lord Kira

P.S. Genghis if you want to talk badly about me then that is your right, but do not speak ill of my clan especially when I have not done anything of the sort toward your clan.

@[RE] Lord Kira: What a marvelous comment you made. Truly delightful and I feel a bit humbled by my own ignorance not speaking the language of the referree you quoted. I don't even know for which sport he wistles, judging by the language probably something Chinese or Japanese. I want to learn all there is to know about this exotic sport of the Aristotle and would like you to clarify the rules. Does the Aristotle ruleset have a heading reading something like this?:

11 rules we have to prepared, 11 rules you have to follow. 10 rules are stated in our ruleset, those 10 rules you have to follow (https://www.warlight.net/Forum/141458-clan-league-8-preparation-thread). Another rule we have declared, an eleventh rule you have to follow. Don't search for the 11 rule, but certainly do follow. The 11th rule is not unveiled yet, we just pull something random out of our ass, if a team we don't want to win ends up winning. Oh, and if the 11th rule contradicts one of the other rules, then what comes later overrides what comes first. Suck it loosers!

@Semicedevine

regarding: if no one is going to give a sht about all this cheating soon, then its only giving the precedent "oh yea its fine to cheat guys no big deal warlight mods best mods"

don't drag warlight mods into this. we are not here to enforce cl8 rules. just like we do not enforce diplo rules.

11 rules we have to prepared, 11 rules you have to follow. 10 rules are stated in our ruleset, those 10 rules you have to follow (https://www.warlight.net/Forum/141458-clan-league-8-preparation-thread). Another rule we have declared, an eleventh rule you have to follow. Don't search for the 11 rule, but certainly do follow. The 11th rule is not unveiled yet, we just pull something random out of our ass, if a team we don't want to win ends up winning. Oh, and if the 11th rule contradicts one of the other rules, then what comes later overrides what comes first. Suck it loosers!

1) Alts - A player may only operate 1 account in a given clan league (regardless of division, and must declare their main if using an alt.

seems to be pretty straightforward to me, don't understand why it creates such a problem though.

rule 3 (max amount of tournaments emu can be in), 4 (what can be considered as a player slot (every 3v3 team has 3 slots, emu can be in max 3 slots)) & 6 (if ltemperor is retired it could be a legitimate reason, but I don't think he is?) can also apply to some extend but as emu is in only 1 tournament don't seem to be relevant here

Edited 7/23/2016 17:15:00

@Semicedevine

Rule 6 can not only can be interpreted to mean that Emu has done nothing wrong but that you are also making yourself and the forum look like shit over nothing. I have no intention of debating this matter with you further because facts don't appear to be your strong suit.

Rule 6 is very clear. https://www.warlight.net/Forum/141458-clan-league-8-preparation-thread. Please read it before restarting drama that has been dead for two days.

Edited 7/23/2016 18:36:03

Kira your clan is the very example of bureaucracy. So no, i will trash your clan when and if i ever feel up to it because there is no need for convoluted government structures in a flash game.

Hey Rogue, come relax. I find Semicedivine quite funny, not as funny as the IM guy but still funny. I'm pretty sure he is just having his fun here. If I wouldn't have to represent our clan (as one of our 5 admins) I would also hop in and get as much laughter as possible out of this thread. I'm pretty sure that Semicedivine knows quite well where knyte's hypocrisy is. I mean come on, the Lost Wolves, have maxed out Semicedevine in the "clan league" who takes pride in his reputation as "the destroyer of clans".

Anyhow, Norman out here, I promised you guys to act more responsible in the future. Everyone who had a good laugh looking at the bigotts posting in this thread, please feel free to apply to our clan. That's what we stand for: Excellent play, great gaming attitude, fair play and having a good laugh with some occasional trolling. Since currently not all our members are laughing at this thread I'd like to ask our hot heated members (including myself) to not reply here any longer.

Edited 7/23/2016 19:49:52

Kroete, as Aristotle put it "ignorantia iuris nocet". Also even if the accused did not know the rule they had broken, Ignorantia juris non excusat. Now I am not saying the accused broke any rule, but defending someone by saying "no one could verify there was a rule broken that has been known to the accused beforehand' only allows people to break the rules and claim ignorance which is purely unacceptable whether it is true or not.

This depends on if the rule is stated in an understandable manner and in a place were everyone has access to.
If the jurisdiction fails to communicate a set of rules, it can not expect anyone to comply.
If the accused person is too lazy to read or too thick to understand a(n otherwise understandable) rule, Aristotle comes into the play.

In my opinion, the clan league rules are not clear enough on this topic. It is obviously very hard to think of all possibilities beforehand, so this drama here should lead to a clarification in the rules (and yes, this practically means the rules will get longer and longer from clan league to clan league).
In the end, it will be up to the clan league manageres to decide if it should have been clear enough that account sitting is forbidden for clan league games or not anyway. But the rules as they are now leave room for interpretation, so they should be changed to clarify things.

I THINK WE SHOULD ALL DECLARE WAR ON THEM! but i think also we should exclude M'Hunters from community events

I think that certain things need to change about this community, about Clan League, and about how clans operate (that's been a transparently-held view of mine for a long, long time).

Those intentions are good and you're in your right to state your view of the problems that concern all the community. However it doesn't justify the way you present us MHunters, is offensive at least for me.

The title itself incites drama, your accusations are generalizing the clan when you should've pointed the particular members and the particular issues and suggesting reasonable solutions, opening the dialog to both parties, not exhorting the community to exclude us from the begining.

That's why I still doubt your motives and the reason I made an unnecesary comment. I'm sorry for that.

Having said that, I agree with Kroete that the main question now is about the rules of the clan league if this thread serves for something it must be the clarification of CL rules.

Edited 7/24/2016 05:15:29

Agreed. While I think the other issues should remain part of the conversation, http://bit.ly/mh-cheating is the most important thing right now- not just for clarification, but for enforcement.

Edited 7/24/2016 06:20:27

bump

It's like state-sponsored doping all over again.