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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-06 21:55:38


Zoe
Level 39
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You can never get anywhere with anti-science people like this. Have an entire field of academia and a plethora of both national and international organizations disagree with you? They MUST be silencing everyone who disagrees with the general consensus, they HAVE to be hiding something. Nevermind my complete lack of evidence for even just this assertion. I mean seriously, these people make such massive assumptions and mental gymnastics in order to justify their decidedly anti-science beliefs, it's like talking to a flat earther.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-07 18:24:29


The Joey
Level 59
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Who here is being anti-science? 𝘝𝘌𝘙𝘕𝘈𝘓 𝘝𝘐𝘕𝘈𝘐𝘎𝘙𝘌𝘛𝘛𝘌 main post is talking about a real problem in academia, that academia has openly recognized and is trying to solve. For example in my own field, statistics, there has been quite a bit of talk about the use of hypothesis tests, and p-values and how a general lack of understanding of the nuisances and complexities of these sort of statistics has contributed to the bigger issue of reproducibility and other issues in academia.

While my posts are not supposed to be anti-science, they are pointing out the limitations of science. Such as forcing people to accept one redefinition of a commonly used word over another. I have never claimed that transmen or transwoman don't exist, or that they are some how 'lesser,' they aren't. They are human beings deserving of both respect, and the same equality of opportunity as the rest of us. Nor have I claimed your use of the word 'gender' is irrational. I am merely pointing out that science does not have a monopoly on all forms of knowledge, and that the science you are portraying does not really have the consensus as you have portrayed it.

Really this forum post has been a debate that is supporting your version of what appears to be empiricism(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism), and mine which is a form of pragmatic skepticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism
) and rationalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalism). Both views are valid, and these sort of epistemic debates go back at least as far as Socrates and Aristotle. But writing off our side as anti-science without even trying to address the beliefs is just dogmatic, lazy, and inaccurate.

Edited 6/7/2019 18:39:02
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-08 14:57:01


Cata Cauda
Level 59
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All of this talk about so called "gender-studies" makes me wonder .... what kind of studies did those guys do? I never really looked into it, because, like I said, we dont differ between those 2 things in the German language. But I am curious now what kind of research they did to came to those conclusions.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-09 16:14:47


The Joey
Level 59
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Gender studies and feminism has constructed a very interesting system from which to view the world. I don't know if I know enough about to adequately explain. But I've been making my way through The Oxford Handbook of Feminist Theory, and I would suggest you take a look at it if you are interested in learning more. https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199328581.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199328581
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 15:06:52


RainB00ts
Level 48
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None of the UN social agendas are remotely scientific. Non-scientists control funding and give research grants to the scientists they agree with.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 15:12:51


RainB00ts
Level 48
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Zoe, you clearly haven't taken a basic logic class, otherwise you would have realized that it doesn't matter that a PLETHORA!! of big organizations with the same social agenda all have the same "scientific" conclusions about gender. That's called an appeal to authority, dummy.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 19:00:00


Zoe
Level 39
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Deferring to people who have spent their lives studying this and widely respected international organizations who also dedicate themselves to stuff like this isn't an appeal to authority.

From LogicallyFallicious.com, "Be very careful not to confuse "deferring to an authority on the issue" with the appeal to authority fallacy. Remember, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. Dismissing the council of legitimate experts and authorities turns good skepticism into denialism. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities."
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 19:02:38


Zoe
Level 39
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And again, I'd like to point out this is the same logic Flat Earther's use. Entire scientific field disagree with you? They all have an agenda! They're all just lying! Who cares about "science" or "scientific consensus" amirite?
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 20:37:56


The Joey
Level 59
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@vernal vinaigrette Don't try and reason with Zoe. He has not been a good faith participant in this conversation. Given he has yet to give a real response that refutes or even addresses any of the points made against him, while repeatedly making the same logical fallacy over and over again (the definition of "Appeal to Authority" given on the his site is "Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered." Which is exactly what he has done thus far.) At this point he is essentially covering his ears and screaming "I can't here you! LALALA!".
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 21:04:15


Cata Cauda
Level 59
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Deferring to people who have spent their lives studying this and widely respected international organizations who also dedicate themselves to stuff like this isn't an appeal to authority.

From LogicallyFallicious.com, "Be very careful not to confuse "deferring to an authority on the issue" with the appeal to authority fallacy. Remember, a fallacy is an error in reasoning. Dismissing the council of legitimate experts and authorities turns good skepticism into denialism. The appeal to authority is a fallacy in argumentation, but deferring to an authority is a reliable heuristic that we all use virtually every day on issues of relatively little importance. There is always a chance that any authority can be wrong, that’s why the critical thinker accepts facts provisionally. It is not at all unreasonable (or an error in reasoning) to accept information as provisionally true by credible authorities."

Again, what kind of scientific studies did those people do to come to those conclusions?
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 21:58:20


Zoe
Level 39
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Well here's a huge meta-analysis of "all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being." that concludes, "This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender."

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 22:39:23


RainB00ts
Level 48
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Indulging mentally ill peoples' delusions and self-destructive fetishes leads them on a short path to suicide.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 22:43:16


RainB00ts
Level 48
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I don't insist that the state prevents adults intent on destroying their mind and body as a fashion statement or as part of a legitimate mental illness from doing so, but I do insist that accurate medical information is provided and that children be prevented from DESTROYING their reproductive systems PERMANENTLY. This shit should not be PROMOTED to anyone let alone children.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 22:50:59


The Joey
Level 59
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@Vernal Vinaigrette I think that is a very main stream view point. I would speculate that even most transgender people would support measures disallowing children from undergoing surgery, and taking hormones. While also providing accurate medical information to the trans patient before surgery or hormones is administered. While having only read the linked page, Zoe provided and not the actual studies, it doesn't seem to mention minors.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-12 23:13:27


Zoe
Level 39
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You can be trans and be completely mentally healthy, not all trans people have gender dysphoria. And you can whine all you want but the studies show trans people are *much* better off in an accepting environment and being provided hormones and SRS. As for trans children, most studies show the majority of trans children are correct in that they are trans, and usually know prior to social transitions. Most studies also show trans children are better off taking puberty blockers than not.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/young-trans-children-know-who-they-are/580366/

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223
"In sum, we provide novel evidence of low rates of internalizing psychopathology in young socially transitioned transgender children who are supported in their gender identity. These data suggest at least the possibility that being transgender is not synonymous with, nor the direct result of, psychopathology in childhood.27 Instead, these results provide clear evidence that transgender children have levels of anxiety and depression no different from their nontransgender siblings and peers. "
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-13 05:37:23


The Joey
Level 59
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@Zoe You understand posting links to sources without thinking critically about the links you are posting is doing you no favors. Those papers do not give the type of resounding statements that you seem to be implying.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-13 06:30:51


Zoe
Level 39
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What's that supposed to mean? One is from a major news outlet and the other is a meta-analysis of dozens of studies from Cornell university.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-13 09:42:34

Japanball
Level 56
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not all trans people have gender dysphoria
Wrong.
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-13 17:08:49


The Joey
Level 59
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@Zoe have you even read them? And not just the 1 paragraph abstract, but actually read them in their entirety? The methodology is horrible, they both use convience sampling. They both have a relatively small sample size. They both do very little to control for a few obvious confounding variables (if you had read the study in its entirety, it even says this). They aren't drawing the conclusions you seem to be drawing, and they do not follow the scientific method.

Finally do you even understand what you are suggesting? Have you ever really known a 5-12 year old?
There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 2019-06-13 17:54:01


Zoe
Level 39
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Small sample size? The Cornel one is a meta-analysis of literally every single English-language study on the subject in the last couple decades. And what conclusions do you think the Cornel one is drawing? Because it quite literally says, "This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender."
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