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@Harmony: This exact proposal has been suggested multiple times and supported by multiple people, including at least one member each of MB/OP/Harmony/Prime. This is the best idea in my opinion as well but unfortunately it’s fallen on deaf ears.

Here’s a thread about this exact proposal if you are curious: https://www.warzone.com/Forum/764928-clan-wars-proposal

@Bringbacksucks can you define what you mean by "Not significant?"
Because I'm trying to thorise it in my head and it should provide a significant advantage without adding in pcwr over cwr.

The reason is simple. In a game system like this, after playing enough games the winrate of each clan comes to somewhere around 50%, except the top clan MB. Which has higher winrate because they can maintain a positive winrate against anyone, but when some other clan performs better, their cwr rises and they inevitably starts to be paired against better clans, in the end MB and cannot maintain the winrate.
Even in a short season like that, you can see every clan until 14th place having 50% +-5% winrate. (Technically Optimum has 56%, but they started the season slow and got a sudden increase at winrate at the end.) Looking at season 54, every clan has 50%+-3% winrate (except Ving, which I don't know why).

When you keep this in mind, in theory, my mind concludes that if you allow everyone to play without introducing pcwr, you are gonna give an advantage to crowded (uncapped? I forgot the terminology) clans, because as mentioned clans are hetoregenous. With cwr system, you are essentially giving a single rating to the mix of players, and making them face other players whose cwr is similar. It causes really different winrate among players in a clan when keeping clan winrate stable around 50%.
So what would happen if you let everyone play and count top n players ? Surprise, even though "eveyone in clan"s winrate would still be close to 50%, top n players would easily break that barrier,reaching much higher winrates. 60%, 65%, maybe even higher.
What solves the issue? pcwr. If pcwr + that suggestion can be implemented together, then ye it would work. but if you just let everyone play with current cwr system and count top n players, in theory it should give crowded clans an advantage.

If you think I've missed sth feel free to write there.
(Sorry for grammar and typing mistakes, if any, writing from mobile is hard )

PS- before anyone asks I'm not speaking for my clan here, I was just reading it at a sunny Saturday and wanted to give my personal input.

Edited 10/26/2024 07:49:59

Fizzer. Please don’t skim this. Please read it until the end.

Clans do not exist for Clan Wars. They are communities. These communities are what make Warzone fun.

The biggest clans are the best at Clan Wars, not because of their size, but because they’re fun, and fun clans motivate players.

Harmony has 300 active members. We are the 2nd best clan in Clan Wars. Not because we have a 300 player rotating roster. We don’t! You remove the cap, and max only 50 of the 300 players will play in a season.

In the last 10 seasons, of the 6700 games Harmony has played, our top 40 players are responsible for 87% of games played. We don’t have the depth you think we do!

Knyte made a great analogy earlier. Clans are like athletics clubs that play many sports and competitions. You are penalising the athletics clubs’ football teams because they also have a basketball team.

So ask yourself, what happens to the guys on the football team that also play basketball, baseball and hockey? You’ve made it pointless for them to play football, since if they win it’s worth a fraction of the teams that only focus on Clan Wars. So do you think they’re going to give up 3 sports to play 1? No. They’re going to drop the 1, or play it much more casually.

Half of Clan Wars participation are from these “athletic clubs”. By penalising them, you’re going to kill the motivation of a significant portion of the CW player base.

Please don’t drop these changes and run away. Monitor CW closely. You believe you are releasing the flood gates and will cause more participation. So if you see a drop off in participation as I predict, please be open enough to admit you were wrong and revert the changes.

no wayyy

I was thinking changes were going good until I read the part about uncapped clans.
And that's just not it.
Like it isnt reasonable to expect a 150-capacity clan to have 125 clan war games each day.
I cannot really see why uncapped clans dont benefit from simple 25/#Participators.

On a first glance, that is the only thing which needs a change? I think so.

https://www.warzone.com/blog/index.php/2024/08/update-5-29-voted-features-upcoming-clan-changes/

For a legacy uncapped clan with more than 50 players, where (ClanSize – 25) or fewer players participate in a day, win strength is calculated as 25 / (ClanSize – 25). This means that they want (ClanSize – 25) players in their clan to compete to achieve the maximum daily score of 25.

So #1 clan Myth Busters would get full score, while Harmony would get 25/(412-25)=25/387=~0.065. To put it into perspective, MythBusters would get ~15.5 times more points per victory.

Myth Busters would also have easier time, because of having 40 players compete on daily basis, they could just use 25 of their best players (Which means on average more wins, because worst 15 won't have to play) to do well. They could then use the 25 reserve players to plug in the gaps, whenever one of top 25 players cannot show up. This update clearly favors Myth Busters.

Here's the list of top 20 CW clans affected by this "update":

• Harmony: 15.5 times reduction.
  
• Prime: 5.3 times reduction.
  
• The Last Alliance: 5.8 times reduction.
  
• knyte club: 2.8 times reduction.
  
• After Dark: 5.2 times reduction.
  
• Optimum: 2.1 times reduction.
  
• Polish Eagles: 3.4 times reduction.
  
• 101st: 4 times reduction.
  
• Very Important Weirdos: 1.2 times reduction.
  
• Icelandic Turtles: 1.05 times reduction.
  
• M'Hunters: 2 times reduction.
  
• CATS: 15.1 times reduction.
  
• Celtica: 3.4 times reduction.

Currently there are 13 top 20 CW clans with 50+ players and 11 of these clans are going to get 2+ times point reduction. Last season 278 players represented these 13 clans. Myth Busters were represented by 37 players and remaining 6 top 20 clans had 83 participating players. In total there were 398 participating players in top 20 CW clans and ~70% of them are going to be negatively effected by this change. Some of the clans had hit 40 player CW cap, so the actual amount of negatively affected players is likely higher.

If this update is not swiftly amended, it's going to cause significant harm to Clan Wars event integrity. Most of people within each clan are like friends/colleagues in real life and there are strong bonds between players. Also to most clans CW is not the most important aspect and they are primarily based around specific games/tournaments/events or something else. Expecting hundreds of players getting kicked just so TOP 20 clans remain competitive is an insane idea. I predict that if this update is not overturned, most clans are simply going to abandon Clan Wars and the popularity of this event will sink greatly.

EDIT: https://wz-cw.5smith.ru can be used to verify numbers discussed within this post.

Edited 10/26/2024 15:28:50

I have a simple idea to potentially encourage clans to challenge top place.

Cap clans at 50, and CW daily participation number at 75 (or some number > 50).

This way, a capped clan can get top place if they are super good, or an uncapped clan can get top place if they diligently field massive number of players everyday (which is still quite hard).

@Roy do you suggest 1 point per win in your suggestion? Because if it would be the case, then it is just what it is currently (pre-update) except you are giving uncapped clans 25 extra slot, for ? .

I still support that just apply 25/#participants to all clans (as more as #participants>25), which solves the major issue.

Edited 10/26/2024 16:22:57

The addition of a "win strength" factor to account for daily players and clan size seems very promising and it's a welcome change.

But let's not beat around the bush, even though we all agree that legacy clans have an advantage and their size must be taken into account to level the play-field, this system is just not it.

Expecting a number of daily games equal or bigger than (clan members - 25), otherwise your clan performance will de facto be crippled, is just unreasonable.

Just take the win strength based on number of wins over number of games, and multiply it by a second factor: 1 for capped clans, less than 1 for legacy clans.
How less? Bring on suggestions. I'm sure there's a lot of people with great ideas on how to calculate the best factor to adjust the performance of legacy clans.

To be clear, there are many positive changes in this update. It's great to have seasons aligned to the day rather than partial days. It's also great that we're no longer losing our territory rewards.

However, from the blog post:

For a legacy uncapped clan with more than 50 players, where (ClanSize – 25) or fewer players participate in a day, win strength is calculated as 25 / (ClanSize – 25). This means that they want (ClanSize – 25) players in their clan to compete to achieve the maximum daily score of 25.

This single change makes all of the positive changes moot. Even if we assume that Clans exist only to participate in Clan Wars (an assumption I vehemently disagree with), getting 50% participation for a capped clan is hard. Getting 94% participation for a clan like Harmony is just never going to happen.

This completely arbitrary penalty to 60% of the top 10 clans, forces them to either destroy their community to have a chance of competing in Clan Wars, or to preserve their community but accept that they've been intentionally excluded from Clan Wars.

Personally, I have chosen to cease playing Clan Wars, pending further updates. I encourage others who are unhappy with this change to do the same.

Sincerely, someone who used to play Clan Wars every day.

Regarding the point system, why not compensate the advantage uncapped clans get by doing: Wins*(50/# of members)? For a 50 player clan, they can reach max points by having half of their members win a clan war game, so you can apply that same logic to every clan.

Oh and an important side note, the arbitrary 25 point cap for a clan in a single day makes no sense. Clans deserve to get rewarded for exceptional days where they score over the 25 point mark, I don't even think there should be a point cap at all. You could end up with a clan reaching 25 points before everyone in the clan has played, and as a result, anyone who wants to play and ends up winning contributes 0 points to their clan.

Outside of that, Fizzer did a great job with this update. The new clan war templates, better rewards, and clan cap increase to 50 are all great overall improvements. Thanks for taking community feedback seriously Fizz!

You do get rewarded for scoring over 25

30/35 is better than 25/30 (for example)

There are other scenarios where a win can net your clan 0 points, and even in your example, the 5 extra wins is pretty insignificant, not even gaining your clan a single extra point.

"Most of people within each clan are like friends/colleagues in real life and there are strong bonds between players. Also to most clans CW is not the most important aspect and they are primarily based around specific games/tournaments/events or something else. "

This pretty much says it all. Well I'd guess CW is the most important aspect to many clams if not most, but it isn't the only factor. But still the point stands.

I am not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.

As for me, might push to get my 1 win per season, but at 1/6 reward for wins, there is little point to push for more or to even try. I don't want to switch clams for non clam war reasons [and to be honest being tethered to the game during time slots was getting a bit old anyways] so either I mostly give up on clam wars or I switch and abandon a good group of colleagues and an active clam chat.

But at least the new system rewards skills by valuing wins at a small fraction of other clams?

Our situation:

so we get the 25/31 WS on every wins.

We usually have 8 players/day playing, we get 4/5 wins and those are even less worthy.
If we hire new players for CW we will see a reduction on WS. And you can't even abuse mass since you can use only 25 players /day.

gotta kick our some members...

Edited 10/27/2024 07:37:53

sad, another era dies. MB's will be the overall winner of all CW seasons to come. smaller clans will get their so much wanted rewards for their efforts but never be 1st. good for their spirits, to "Finally Belong" to the top-10 CW clans (clan rating still calculated on base of CW participation?)

I think clans like Harmony, TLA, MH, Cats, ... will fold back on their own events, or the unofficial community events, like we were *before* clan wars was invented.

Fine by me, no more pressure on daily events with a timer, I can play now whenever convenient for me. Not interrupting conversations with my loved ones, postpone dinner, pause a movie.

I suggest we leave CW to the new and small clans, so they can develop. And we'll focus on the other community events we organise ourselves. No need to get frustrated with gaining only 0.081 points per win, if I win a CW game at all ;)

Well I still suggest that just applying 25/#participants to uncapped clans solves the main issue. And I don't think it will be hard to implement, either.

Edited 10/27/2024 07:59:53

uncapped clan have advantage so some penality is supposed to exist but the actual rule is too imposing.